Just wanted to get the pulse on how you guys feel about the safety position.

Are we doing alright at that spot or is it getting overlooked?

They are so-so. Not a glaring weakness but far from a strength. Both are more SS types, which is why losing Reggie hurt our D so much last year. There are lots of good prospects in the draft so I would not be opposed to getting one.

Iloka looked better next to Reggie due to Reggie's pass coverage skills.

Williams is a good run support safety...but below average in pass coverage.

We have bigger needs on the team to address these though.

(03-06-2017, 01:40 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Just wanted to get the pulse on how you guys feel about the safety position.

Are we doing alright at that spot or is it getting overlooked?

I don't think we are near as bad at this spot as some. Shawn had a rough year and so did George but with Derron Smith,
Josh Shaw and Fej i think we have quality depth and anyone of these guys could step in and do well if Shawn does not
improve. I believe he will though, it was his first year as a starter.

But if he doesn't i really like all of these backups. Derron is the perfect FS type and is a ballhawk, even if Shawn does
well Derron could push for his spot. He has range like Reggie and better hands, not as good of a tackler yet.

Shaw is so versatile and physical, love this guy but i would prefer him at CB where he did well last year especially if we
lose Kirkpatrick. We still don't know if Adam is gone either but always need CB depth.

Fej played very good as a rookie and wished we would of seen more of the guy. Big, physical Safety. I think this guy
will end up being a stud ST'er.

The safety play without Nelson was really underwhelming. They seemed to forget how to tackle, too.

Fej made a couple plays on the couple snaps he got, but that's not really a proper indicator of full time since Williams looked good in limited snaps in 2015 and much worse as a full time starter in '16.

No offense to Nate, but I fully disagree on giving Williams the "it was his first year as a starter" pass. It was his FOURTH year as an NFL player. Can't keep up this trend of giving secondary players 5 years of passes. Maybe the Bengals can find someone in this draft to be a safety/nickle LB player, and help solve two issues at once.

Safety is a pretty low value position so investing too much in it is not worth it. Iloka and Williams are more than fine and if Derron Smith learned how to tackle, would be a fantastic nickel safety if they experimented with move Williams to LB on nickel sets

(03-06-2017, 04:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The safety play without Nelson was really underwhelming. They seemed to forget how to tackle, too.

Fej made a couple plays on the couple snaps he got, but that's not really a proper indicator of full time since Williams looked good in limited snaps in 2015 and much worse as a full time starter in '16.

No offense to Nate, but I fully disagree on giving Williams the "it was his first year as a starter" pass. It was his FOURTH year as an NFL player. Can't keep up this trend of giving secondary players 5 years of passes. Maybe the Bengals can find someone in this draft to be a safety/nickle LB player, and help solve two issues at once.

No offense taken brother as i completely understand your point. First year with Coyle though.

I guess i am making up excuses but they could be somewhat valid.

I would love it if we shored up the O-line in FA so we could draft one of the stud Safeties like Hooker, Adams or the freak Melifonwu..

Problem is i doubt we will so we will not be able to go BPA except in the first round maybe.

I really like Derron Smith, i will keep saying this in case Shawn sucks it up.

I just realized that this defense is pretty much average or below average at every position group.

Seriously, what position group can you name that we are really good in? Linebacker, cornerback, defense line, safety?

(03-06-2017, 04:26 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Safety is a pretty low value position so investing too much in it is not worth it. Iloka and Williams are more than fine and if Derron Smith learned how to tackle, would be a fantastic nickel safety if they experimented with move Williams to LB on nickel sets

Completely on board with this. Shawn actually looked good at nickel LB when we used him there.

There was a noticeable decline in our S play last year. That was all about losing Reggie. S is a position which can cover up other holes in your defense and I see it as a critical position. Great S play can do for your defense what a great pass rush does. It's like having a shot blocker back there in the paint. Look at Seattle.

For reference the Bengals were ranked 10th in DVOA on deep passes but 19th on short passes, which is typically more attributed to LBs when we gave up more yardage to TEs than WRs. That said, #2 WRs were where we ranked worst out of any position where we are about middle of the pack. The worst area of our team was on the left side of the field, AKA Jones' side that he covers. Nothing really attributed to safety play is too bad

(03-06-2017, 05:06 PM)eoxyod Wrote: For reference the Bengals were ranked 10th in DVOA on deep passes but 19th on short passes, which is typically more attributed to LBs when we gave up more yardage to TEs than WRs. That said, #2 WRs were where we ranked worst out of any position where we are about middle of the pack. The worst area of our team was on the left side of the field, AKA Jones' side that he covers. Nothing really attributed to safety play is too bad

Sounds about right. I thought it was blown out of proportion quite a bit last season.

We could definately get better at Safety but we weren't terrible there either.

The Linebackers on the other hand were out of position tons early last year, but that was mostly in the run game from what i saw.

What we missed past season was having the true Free Safety who is smart and acts as the QB of the secondary - which is what Reggie did. Right now both our starters are Strong Safeties.

It's solid. Granted, it's not a top unit, but fairly solid. Iloka kind of had a down year and Williams wasn't that great, but both were did decent.

I just wish they didn't sign Williams to a contract so early when he didn't even really start.

Overall, Hooker or Adams would be an upgrade, but I expect this tandem to be here for another year.

We got George Iloka at a bargain. He's making only $6 million a year for 5 years. $30 million dollar contract with only $5 million guaranteed. I have NO idea how they got that deal done and they deserve a ton of credit for that one.

Meanwhile, Shawn Williams is making a little over $4.8 million a year.

(03-06-2017, 05:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sounds about right. I thought it was blown out of proportion quite a bit last season.

We could definately get better at Safety but we weren't terrible there either.

The Linebackers on the other hand were out of position tons early last year, but that was mostly in the run game from what i saw.

I think it's mostly because of where expectations were for them, and where they ended up.

In 2015, the safety play was a big strength. Then the offseason rolls around, and they hand out two contracts. Expectations were for them to continue to be a huge strength, but instead they were meh.

It's not that they were terrible, just that they were so far below expectations, is what I think the reactions were for. Plus there was like a month/month and a half where they forgot how to tackle. Lol

(03-06-2017, 06:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think it's mostly because of where expectations were for them, and where they ended up.

In 2015, the safety play was a big strength. Then the offseason rolls around, and they hand out two contracts. Expectations were for them to continue to be a huge strength, but instead they were meh.

It's not that they were terrible, just that they were so far below expectations, is what I think the reactions were for. Plus there was like a month/month and a half where they forgot how to tackle. Lol

Probably correct. I didn't have huge expectations but i still thought Iloka was one of the best in the NFL.

I didn't expect the loss of Reggie to make George look so bad especially in that month/month and a half.

That was the biggest surprise to me, Iloka's poor play early last season. If Derron Smith can learn to tackle i am
definately liking the idea of putting him at FS and Shawn at Nickel LB. Derron's skills are a lot more like Reggie's
than Shawn's are.

(03-06-2017, 06:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think it's mostly because of where expectations were for them, and where they ended up.

In 2015, the safety play was a big strength. Then the offseason rolls around, and they hand out two contracts. Expectations were for them to continue to be a huge strength, but instead they were meh.

It's not that they were terrible, just that they were so far below expectations, is what I think the reactions were for. Plus there was like a month/month and a half where they forgot how to tackle. Lol

This is where we underestimate new coaches so much. While yes, a new coach can help a positional group or higher be great in one season, there is almost always a transitional period from terminology, coaching style, and emergence of leadership. Losing Nelson hurt in that aspect because he was such a strong communicator, but losing him was most definitely okay as he is in/will hit decline very soon. The secondary is the absolute least of our worries

(03-06-2017, 07:01 PM)eoxyod Wrote: This is where we underestimate new coaches so much. While yes, a new coach can help a positional group or higher be great in one season, there is almost always a transitional period from terminology, coaching style, and emergence of leadership. Losing Nelson hurt in that aspect because he was such a strong communicator, but losing him was most definitely okay as he is in/will hit decline very soon. The secondary is the absolute least of our worries

True, Coyle, Haslett and Burney were all new. I truly believe this was the biggest reason our Defense played so bad
early last season. Just happy we looked much better after the bye, but the LB's being out of position so much in the
running game was very concerning. Don't know about Haslett.

(03-06-2017, 07:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True, Coyle, Haslett and Burney were all new. I truly believe this was the biggest reason our Defense played so bad
early last season. Just happy we looked much better after the bye, but the LB's being out of position so much in the
running game was very concerning. Don't know about Haslett.

Fortunately LBs aren't crazy important if you have 1 really good one (Which obviously we do). Of course the DL needs to be revamped to do that (Maybe Nick Fairley :p )

I'm going on record as saying that a play making S would do as much for our defense any any other position we might draft. To say the position doesn't much matter is crazy talk. Ya gotta have a center fielder. He's the fixer, the clean up guy. He sees the whole field. It is critical to a championship defense.