(03-07-2017, 07:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If winning is all that matters then it does not matter as long as he plays well on the field.

In the narrowest of views, maybe.

But there is a bigger picture that says the detriment he has become outweighs what he still brings on the field and easily realize he isn't worth it.

And btw, his special brand of madness has spilled over onto the field too.

(03-07-2017, 06:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Are you serious Fred?

If what he does off the field keeps him off the field he isn't helping right?

Plus he was bad last year anyways.

If he is suspended then I miggyt change my position.

On what do you base ypour claim that Adam was "bad" last year.  It looks like he was top 20 in the league in yards allowed per target.  what measurement are you using?

(03-07-2017, 07:10 PM)McC Wrote: But there is a bigger picture that says the detriment he has become outweighs what he still brings on the field and easily realize he isn't worth it.

What detriment?

(03-07-2017, 07:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What detriment?

I have already covered that.

(03-07-2017, 06:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he was not.

He only allowed 6.1 yards per target.  I am guessing that ranks in the top 20 in the league.  I have not seen the full rankings, but for comparisons sake Dre Kirkpatrick gave up 7.0 per target in 2015 and that ranked 18th.

You can't just make something true by claiming it is true.  So what exactly are you basing your claim that Adam was "bad" last year?

Adam Jones got completely torched in the Denver game by a 2nd year QB. He fell off and it was evident all year long.

Go ahead and pull one stat out of your ass to make your agument that Adam Jones was good. Go ahead.

Doesn't change the fact he was much worse than the year before and him and Dre switched places as the worst player in the Secondary.

Kirkpatick was bad the year before and was much better last year. Go ahead and argue with that, go ahead. 

One of the very few things that our front office does well is keep our dead money low. Brown doesn't like to pay players to begin with, much less cutting them and having to pay them some sort of money to not even play for him. I think that is the biggest reason he is loyal. It has nothing to do with hoping it will draw players here because we honor the life of the contract. That doesn't tend to be something we hear any players saying on why they chose here. I think Mike Brown would rather pay someone more than they're worth to play than to pay them a dime and them not play.

Don't get me wrong, some of these guys are no longer guaranteed anything, but why cut Maualuga and his $3m when people will expect you to replace him which would probably cost more. For us fans, we tend to look at things logically and the same way that most teams in the league do. Player stops performing, is underperforming, is being overpaid, whatever the case may be, you begin to look for replacements and cut said player. The Bengals obviously do not operate in the same universe. Our turnstile C, worst RT in the league, and our atrocious K kept getting paraded out week after week regardless of the fact they were directly costing the team wins. Tell me again how we're just like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England, and these other post season success having teams. We say we follow their model, but we're not even remotely close.

(03-07-2017, 07:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kirkpatick was bad the year before and was much better last year. Go ahead and argue with that, go ahead. 

Dre was not bad at all in '15.  He played 97% of the snaps on a pass defense that ranked top 5 in pass efficiency defense.  and his individual numbers were very good.  Among the 75 qualifying CBs Dre ranked 18th in average yard per target, 19th in completion percentage allowed, 20th in passes defended, and 32 in success rate.  He was clearly among the top half of the starters in the league.

And he did get better in 2017.  He moved all the way up to 6th in yards allowed per target.  

(03-07-2017, 07:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Go ahead and pull one stat out of your ass to make your agument that Adam Jones was good. Go ahead.

I already did.

Now it is your turn.

Go ahead and pull one stat out of your ass to make your argument that Adam Jones was bad.  Go ahead.





I'll wait.

(03-07-2017, 11:41 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Domata Peko doesn't need to be cut. He's a FA.

Cincy Jungle reports that the Bengals are very likely to resign Peko to mentor Billings. Just offer him a coaching job and open up some needed space on the 53.

(03-07-2017, 10:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was not bad at all in '15.  He played 97% of the snaps on a pass defense that ranked top 5 in pass efficiency defense.  and his individual numbers were very good.  Among the 75 qualifying CBs Dre ranked 18th in average yard per target, 19th in completion percentage allowed, 20th in passes defended, and 32 in success rate.  He was clearly among the top half of the starters in the league.

And he did get better in 2017.  He moved all the way up to 6th in yards allowed per target.  

PFF statistic: Adam Jones coverage rank

• 2016: 45th
• 2015: 12th
  

Ooops. 

(03-07-2017, 10:12 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: PFF statistic: Adam Jones coverage rank

• 2016: 45th
• 2015: 12th
  

Ooops. 

PFF keeps some interesting raw stats, but their individual player rankings are a joke.

Player A can play fewer snaps than player B, mess up more often than player B, but still be ranked ahead of player B.  Their individual rankings are all jacked up.  For example, in 2015 when all the stats showed that Dre was in the top 30 in the league PFF had him ranked something like 115 behind a bunch of scrubs that barely played.

I apologize if "coverage rank" is something different based on actual statistics.  Do you know what their "coverage rank" is based on?

(03-07-2017, 07:57 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: One of the very few things that our front office does well is keep our dead money low. Brown doesn't like to pay players to begin with, much less cutting them and having to pay them some sort of money to not even play for him. I think that is the biggest reason he is loyal. It has nothing to do with hoping it will draw players here because we honor the life of the contract. That doesn't tend to be something we hear any players saying on why they chose here. I think Mike Brown would rather pay someone more than they're worth to play than to pay them a dime and them not play.

Don't get me wrong, some of these guys are no longer guaranteed anything, but why cut Maualuga and his $3m when people will expect you to replace him which would probably cost more. For us fans, we tend to look at things logically and the same way that most teams in the league do. Player stops performing, is underperforming, is being overpaid, whatever the case may be, you begin to look for replacements and cut said player. The Bengals obviously do not operate in the same universe. Our turnstile C, worst RT in the league, and our atrocious K kept getting paraded out week after week regardless of the fact they were directly costing the team wins. Tell me again how we're just like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England, and these other post season success having teams. We say we follow their model, but we're not even remotely close.

This likely explains why over-the-hill players play and the young Turks ride the bench.

(03-07-2017, 06:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So your self-righteous high moral standards don't apply to really good players? 

BTW in 2015 Adam was a top 5 CB in the entire league.  He dropped off some last year, but he is not "bad" at all.

It comes down to how many chances does a guy get before you have to just say...**** it, you are not learning from this. 

His antics off the field directly translate to his behavior on the field. The shoving the ref to get to Porter and costing us 15 more yards. The slamming Cooper's head against his helmet after a play. The guy is always one push or comment away from going off and costing his team 15 yards and possibly a win.

In the real world, when you want to have a winning culture in any type of business, the loose cannon guy like this gets fired or cut to make an example so that everyone else falls in line and does their job the right way.

Seriously, if you think Adam should be on this team still...there is actually something wrong with you as a person. Watch the videos, read his arrest reports (key word REPORTS, there is a lot of them), and tell me what business this guy has on a football field.

Good ***** question.

We don't cut guys because Mike Brown believes that honoring contracts will somehow attract guys to sign or resign with us. "No matter how much you suck, we'll keep paying you."

(03-07-2017, 10:10 PM)Derrick Wrote: Cincy Jungle reports that the Bengals are very likely to resign Peko to mentor Billings. Just offer him a coaching job and open up some needed space on the 53.

Just have Billings play next to Geno and he'll see how it should be done.  The whole mentoring Billings thing is a giant load of crap and a typical Bengals move cuz they want to keep another one of their step children around to spread mediocrity.

(03-07-2017, 06:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he was not.

He only allowed 6.1 yards per target.  I am guessing that ranks in the top 20 in the league.  I have not seen the full rankings, but for comparisons sake Dre Kirkpatrick gave up 7.0 per target in 2015 and that ranked 18th.

You can't just make something true by claiming it is true.  So what exactly are you basing your claim that Adam was "bad" last year?

6 yards per target? What the hell kind of stat even is that? 

So if a guy gives up 15 catches to an opposing wide receiver during a game for an average of 6 yards per catch and another guy gives up 1 catch a game for 7 yards we are going to say the first guy had a better game? 

That stat is about as worthless as your argument. 

(03-07-2017, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If he is suspended then I miggyt change my position.

On what do you base ypour claim that Adam was "bad" last year.  It looks like he was top 20 in the league in yards allowed per target.  what measurement are you using?

Again, yards allowed per target is a worthless stat. 

(03-08-2017, 10:51 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Again, yards allowed per target is a worthless stat. 

Not to mention if he was targeted several times, gave up two bombs....one for a TD....but the WR dropped 3 balls and the QB overthrew two or three others, or just threw the ball away in his direction.....lots of variables should come into play for that stat.

(03-07-2017, 10:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was not bad at all in '15.  He played 97% of the snaps on a pass defense that ranked top 5 in pass efficiency defense.  and his individual numbers were very good.  Among the 75 qualifying CBs Dre ranked 18th in average yard per target, 19th in completion percentage allowed, 20th in passes defended, and 32 in success rate.  He was clearly among the top half of the starters in the league.

And he did get better in 2017.  He moved all the way up to 6th in yards allowed per target.  

Dre was our worst played in the secondary in 2015 Fred. You can argue with that all you want too, doesn't make it wrong.

You can throw worthless stats around all day but that doesn't change this. These stats say he was middle to back of the pack.

Dre was much better last year and was one of the best defending the deep pass, my argument was just reinforced by you.

(03-07-2017, 10:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I already did.

Now it is your turn.

Go ahead and pull one stat out of your ass to make your argument that Adam Jones was bad.  Go ahead.





I'll wait.

Yeah, a useless stat. Yards per catch? Give me a break. So many variables.

How about how many times he was beat? He was beat for 2 TD's in one half against the Broncos.