(03-13-2017, 11:30 AM)depthchart Wrote: I'm measuring the CONTRACT. Highest Paid Guard of All Time. Zeitler may have borderline Pro Bowl ability but does not have ALL Time Highest Guard Contract abilities.

Then why did they draft him in the first round? if they're not willing to pay top-guard money, they why invest such a high pick on him? 

(03-13-2017, 12:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Three years from now Zeitler's contract won't even be in the top 10 for his position.


If you want to argue his ability, fine. Then don't measure his ability by Pro Bowl appearances.

I measured his ability against ALL TIME Great Guards since his Contract hit an All Time high for Guards. I merely mentioned that he had never been to a Pro Bowl while many other current era Guards have. His current Peers. Pro Bowl appearances are one way people compare and contrast players at their positions. You then whined about how the NFL shuns Bengal players because they have some hatred for Mike Brown. If the NFL hates Mike Brown so much that they shun his players then tell us how in the World Andy Dalton, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, AJ Green, Andrew Whitworth, Tyler Eifert and even Pac Man Jones (as a Punt returner) made PRO BOWL appearances? They all had the same Owner as Zeitler had, Mike Brown.

(03-13-2017, 01:07 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Then why did they draft him in the first round? if they're not willing to pay top-guard money, they why invest such a high pick on him? 

They did get 5 years out of him. I think they had hoped to resign him but the Market took off. They also drafted him the year they had 2 first round picks when they also got Dre Kirkpatrick in 2012.

(03-13-2017, 01:22 PM)depthchart Wrote: They did get 5 years out of him. I think they had hoped to resign him but the Market took off. They also drafted him the year they had 2 first round picks when they also got Dre Kirkpatrick in 2012.

While also missing out on the prime of his career. You spent a ton of time and money on drafting and developing, but at the same time don't feel like it's worth it to pay him? It doesn't make much sense to say we don't value really good guards to then draft one in the first round. 

(03-13-2017, 01:44 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: While also missing out on the prime of his career. You spent a ton of time and money on drafting and developing, but at the same time don't feel like it's worth it to pay him? It doesn't make much sense to say we don't value really good guards to then draft one in the first round. 

I hear ya.
The Bengals had two 1st round picks that year and actually Traded Down from pick #21 to pick #27 to get Zeitler and an extra 3rd round pick. So Zeitler was near the end of round 1 and they got an extra 3rd round pick to boot. All of this made it easier for them to justify getting a Guard in round 1 which is not normally their thing.

(03-13-2017, 10:56 AM)depthchart Wrote: The mention of no Pro Bowls for Zeitler was in relation to him now being the Highest paid Guard in NFL History Einstein. Zeitler is a very solid Guard but we are talking about an ALL Time highest Guard Contract here. He is not the Best Guard in the NFL right now and definitely not the Best All Time. Cleveland had a ton of money to spend to reach the minimum spending requirement and made sure they outbid 31 other teams.

You're trying to judge different era's with different cap numbers. The salary cap has went up substantially since 2007 or so. I believe I heard it's around 40% higher now than 10 years ago. That'll change the pay curve quite a bit. 

(03-13-2017, 01:15 PM)depthchart Wrote: I measured his ability against ALL TIME Great Guards since his Contract hit an All Time high for Guards. I merely mentioned that he had never been to a Pro Bowl while many other current era Guards have. His current Peers. Pro Bowl appearances are one way people compare and contrast players at their positions. You then whined about how the NFL shuns Bengal players because they have some hatred for Mike Brown. If the NFL hates Mike Brown so much that they shun his players then tell us how in the World Andy Dalton, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, AJ Green, Andrew Whitworth, Tyler Eifert and even Pac Man Jones (as a Punt returner) made PRO BOWL appearances? They all had the same Owner as Zeitler had, Mike Brown.

Did Andrew Whitworth suddenly become good when he went to his first Pro Bowl in 2012 after seven seasons?

(03-13-2017, 01:56 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did Andrew Whitworth suddenly become good when he went to his first Pro Bowl in 2012 after seven seasons?

Was Mike Brown Whitworth's Owner?

(03-13-2017, 01:55 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: You're trying to judge different era's with different cap numbers. The salary cap has went up substantially since 2007 or so. I believe I heard it's around 40% higher now than 10 years ago. That'll change the pay curve quite a bit. 

Zeitler is not even the Best Guard in this Era. If you think the Bengals should have "Rode the Curve" and paid more than Cleveland that is your choice. I'm ok with letting him walk at that price. That's my choice.

(03-13-2017, 01:59 PM)depthchart Wrote: Was Mike Brown Whitworth's Owner?

How many Pro Bowls did Whitworth have after his rookie contract? Same as Zeitler, zero. Their ability level is different, but Whitworth didn't get the recognition he deserved until after seven seasons and the Bengals started to reach the playoffs. So the Pro Bowl comment is just silly.

(03-13-2017, 02:41 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How many Pro Bowls did Whitworth have after his rookie contract?  Same as Zeitler, zero. Their ability level is different, but Whitworth didn't get the recognition he deserved until after seven seasons and the Bengals started to reach the playoffs. So the Pro Bowl comment is just silly.

You are being silly by trying to make a Mountain out of a Mole Hill. You should use this energy you have to build a Kevin Zeitler statue in your back yard. Zeitler is a very good player that may make some Pro Bowls soon. I hated to see him leave. All I simply said was that as of today he hasn't made a Pro Bowl, yet he got an ALL TIME High Guard contract. You read what I said and have been going all Johnnie Cochran with a federal Case ever since and pulled the Mike Brown was Zeitler's Owner card to boot.

(03-13-2017, 03:00 PM)depthchart Wrote: You are being silly by trying to make a Mountain out of a Mole Hill. You should use this energy you have to build a Kevin Zeitler statue in your back yard. Zeitler is a very good player that may make some Pro Bowls soon. I hated to see him leave. All I simply said was that as of today he hasn't made a Pro Bowl, yet he got an ALL TIME High Guard contract. You read what I said and have been going all Johnnie Cochran with a federal Case ever since and pulled the Mike Brown was Zeitler's Owner card to boot.

Being voted into the Pro Bowl or being left out of the Pro Bowl means absolutely nothing. 

(03-13-2017, 02:06 PM)depthchart Wrote: Zeitler is not even the Best Guard in this Era. If you think the Bengals should have "Rode the Curve" and paid more than Cleveland that is your choice. I'm ok with letting him walk at that price. That's my choice.

Right on, man. Solid discussion

(03-13-2017, 01:07 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Then why did they draft him in the first round? if they're not willing to pay top-guard money, they why invest such a high pick on him? 

Truth

(03-13-2017, 02:06 PM)depthchart Wrote: Zeitler is not even the Best Guard in this Era. If you think the Bengals should have "Rode the Curve" and paid more than Cleveland that is your choice. I'm ok with letting him walk at that price. That's my choice.

They should have extended Z a year ago and franchised Whit

I am guessing they could have extended Z for 8 or 9 million which is market price for a good guard.

He is not worth what the Browns paid.

But there is absolutely no sense in using a first or second round draft pick on a position you do not value and which you do not intend to extend after first contract.

And how did letting Montoya walk away because he was a lowly guard work out for us.

This team does not learn from its mistakes and sticks with its 30 year playbook of management no matter what.

(03-13-2017, 03:00 PM)depthchart Wrote: You are being silly by trying to make a Mountain out of a Mole Hill. You should use this energy you have to build a Kevin Zeitler statue in your back yard. Zeitler is a very good player that may make some Pro Bowls soon. I hated to see him leave. All I simply said was that as of today he hasn't made a Pro Bowl, yet he got an ALL TIME High Guard contract. You read what I said and have been going all Johnnie Cochran with a federal Case ever since and pulled the Mike Brown was Zeitler's Owner card to boot.

If the Pro Bowl argument doesn't fit, you must acquit.

(03-13-2017, 03:28 PM)rezolve11 Wrote: Being voted into the Pro Bowl or being left out of the Pro Bowl means absolutely nothing. 

It is just a simple fact that people can use or not use however they wish. Had Zeitler been to a Pro Bowl or 2 then people would include that fact in a discussion by saying "How could we let a Pro Bowl Guard go"? I simply stated two facts. Highest Guard Contract of All Time and zero Pro Bowls. Facts can mean something or nothing to the beholder. My overarching point was that I am OK with the Bengals not matching or beating Cleveland's RECORD offer. No slight on Zeitler. He is very good. He is not Record Deal good to me. I threw in the no Pro Bowl fact which simply means he has been to no Pro Bowls. If he was the Best Guard in the NFL he would have been to some by now. He is on the Pro Bowl Bubble yet got the Highest Guard Contract in History. Both simple facts. Interesting facts. Ironic facts. If Zeitler had been to a Pro Bowl it would get mentioned as a reason why the Bengals should have paid him. Probably by the same guy that has been Federal Casing this to death.

(03-13-2017, 04:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If the Pro Bowl argument doesn't fit, you must acquit.

That is a Great line.
I bet when you woke up this morning you never thought you would be in an argument with a picture of Charles Bronson.
It is all good. I get where you are coming from. Zeitler is solid and will be missed.

Can we all just agree that using a popularity contest (Pro Bowl selection), as a way of measuring a players skill/talent/abilities, is a piss poor measuring stick?

(03-13-2017, 04:18 PM)depthchart Wrote: That is a Great line.
I bet when you woke up this morning you never thought you would be in an argument with a picture of Charles Bronson.
It is all good. I get where you are coming from. Zeitler is solid and will be missed.

Let me ask you a question, which do you think is the bigger mistake?

A) The Browns' signing Zeitler to the highest OG contract ever when he isn't the greatest OG ever.

or

B) The Bengals franchise tagging Stacy Andrews paying him Top 5 OL money for a guy who wasn't even Top 50 at his position while he played.

If the Bengals are willing to grossly overpay Andrews (who sucked), what's so bad about the Browns signing Zeitler when they can afford it and he improves their team?