There were a lot of factors that played into Carson landing in Oakland.

He knew Hue Jackson.
He had gone to college in California.
Oakland was in desperate need of a QB (as it was there first promising season in forever).


I don't think leaving Cinci for Oakland was based on the caliber of the teams.... more on the outlying factors.

(07-29-2015, 10:02 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You'd have credibility if he didn't go to the Raiders of all teams and stayed "retired".  

Look back at the Raiders that year. They were doing well, and showing alot of promise. He knew playing under the Bengals front office and HC was a dead end for the rest of his career, and the way we've tanked year after year in the playoffs he wasn't wrong. 

(07-29-2015, 11:51 AM)GodFather Wrote: Look back at the Raiders that year. They were doing well, and showing alot of promise. He knew playing under the Bengals front office and HC was a dead end for the rest of his career, and the way we've tanked year after year in the playoffs he wasn't wrong. 

So he was correct to go with the Raiders over the Bengals?

Did you really just say that?

(07-29-2015, 11:31 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Winning fixes everything, and/or being a winner changes what people think.  Hines Ward would call out his QBs and whine and complain as much, if not more than TO or Chad (ok maybe not MORE than TO) but he was just being "a vocal leader" and he was doing the "right thing" because "young players look up to guys with rings" and so on. 

Chad goes on dancing with the stars and then has a down year in the NFL and people go on about how it's obvious he doesn't care about football and he's too busy being a diva TV star.  Hines ward goes on the SAME show, does the same thing and then completely falls off a cliff the next season and I'll be darned if I heard one single person claim that Hines stunk because his head wasn't in the game and he'd rather dance than play football.  Nope, everyone was too busy stroking themselves over how much HONOR he had for retiring a Steeler rather than go somewhere else when it seemed to me no other team wanted him.  Again, deductive reasoning.

The same deductive reasoning happen with Carson and Bengals fans.  Carson, for lack of a better term, is a bit of an emotional robot...he just doesn't get too high or too low when it comes to expression.  When we would lose people would say that he just has no fire, no leadership, doesn't care.  When we would win people would say he is unshakable, he has icewater in his veins, he keeps calm under pressure, etc..  It's such deductive, self-serving, biased stuff.

This x 1000.


When other QBs yell at their WRs during a game it is a sign of "vocal leadership".  When Carson yelled at Chad it was a sign of "internal dissent among the team".

(07-29-2015, 11:12 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That is your chosen conclusion, and I disagree with it.  During the 2011 off-season both Carson Palmer and Marvin Lewis raised major concerns about the franchise with Mike Brown.  Mike Brown refused to budge on either and Marvin chose to fall back in line and Carson chose not to.

They both threatened to "quit" as you put it but for some reason only the guy who was actually able to get hired at the same position with another team is demonized while the guy who probably figured it was Bengals-or-nothing stopped making demands and walked back to his cage with his tail between his legs to continue dreaming of the practice facility Mikey won't give him.

The only reason Carson missed game time in 2011 is because Mike Brown would rather win an argument than entertain trade offers.  Carson could have been traded that spring and all this manufactured controversy would have stayed quiet. But just like those neighbors you have that argue as loudly as they want because they don't care what people think of them, the Bengals managed to turn it into yet another player vs. Mike Brown off-season debacle.

That's my take.  I realize it requires more thought than "He quit, he's a quitter" so feel free to dismiss it.

Your stupid line of "I realize it requires more thought" is insulting.  You can excuse away his actions by saying that others also threatened (but did not act), or that he was dealing with such a horrible environment that he would rather sit (quit) than play for this team is nothing but that, excuses.  Not one other player on the team took his stance, and they all play for the same coach and owner.  Saying that calling him a quitter takes less thought than your excuse making is not accurate.  It may be simple, but it is factual...HE QUIT WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. 

Amazingly, a great deal of the media (ESPN) chose to portray Palmer as the victim.  "It's the Bengals", etc.  I will never accept his actions as anything but cowardly.   If you want to see what a real man, a leader, does in such situations look no further than Kurt Warner.  The Rams and Cardinals were just as big a joke, if not bigger, than the Bengals for some time.  He can in, worked with his team, and took them each to a Super Bowl....and won one of them.

I'm sure there were things Warner didn't like about those franchises.  In fact, I remember seeing a pretty demonstrative spat with Todd Haley in one game, but he never quit.  He won. 

(07-29-2015, 11:25 AM)Benton Wrote: Not disagreeing. Just pointing out that guys like Peyton and Brees do get vocal about their teams and frustrations just like Carson did.

That's why I said "vent all you want"..."I personally like to see the passion"...in other words, it matters to Brees and Peyton.  But they didn't quit.

(07-29-2015, 12:54 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Your stupid line of "I realize it requires more thought" is insulting.  You can excuse away his actions by saying that others also threatened (but did not act), or that he was dealing with such a horrible environment that he would rather sit (quit) than play for this team is nothing but that, excuses.  Not one other player on the team took his stance, and they all play for the same coach and owner.  Saying that calling him a quitter takes less thought than your excuse making is not accurate.  It may be simple, but it is factual...HE QUIT WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. 

Amazingly, a great deal of the media (ESPN) chose to portray Palmer as the victim.  "It's the Bengals", etc.  I will never accept his actions as anything but cowardly.   If you want to see what a real man, a leader, does in such situations look no further than Kurt Warner.  The Rams and Cardinals were just as big a joke, if not bigger, than the Bengals for some time.  He can in, worked with his team, and took them each to a Super Bowl....and won one of them.

I'm sure there were things Warner didn't like about those franchises.  In fact, I remember seeing a pretty demonstrative spat with Todd Haley in one game, but he never quit.  He won. 

Again, you simply choose to see this situation as being as simplistic and insulting as you wish.  I pointed out that Marvin Lewis took Carson's stance and yet you seem to think saying that no one else involved with the Bengals taking his stance is somehow believable and legitimate.  You simply don't want to look beyond the simplistic idea that Carson quit because Carson is a quitter and quitting is what quitters do.

You bring up Kurt Warner, and Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning and amazingly fail to realize that all 3 are QBs who were in situations and on teams where the ownership met them halfway and released them from their duties in order to promote situations that ended up being best for them AND the player(s).  Why even bother bringing up outside agencies since we are talking about the Bengals?

Wyche left on bad terms, Esiason left on bad terms, Dillion left on bad terms, Palmer left on bad terms, Chad left on bad terms, Marvin ALMOST left on bad terms, Jonathan Joseph left on bad terms, and I am sure a lot of no-name players who didn't have the clout to rock the boat had issues with the franchise and when someone asks Mike Brown why he doesn't just put a statue of Ken Anderson in front of the stadium gate he says "Ida know, maybe when I die someone else will do it."

Yeah, can't imagine why someone would look at Carson's situation and dare to consider anything other than him being a perpetual quitter.

(07-29-2015, 10:14 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Why?  The guy didn't want to work with Marvin Lewis and/or Mike Brown anymore.  He would have retired if he had to, but he didn't because other teams wanted him, and one wanted him to the extent to offer a trade so ludicrously absurd that even the guy who turned down 1,346 picks for Akili Smith couldn't botch it!

Heck, I think the fact that he preferred to play in Oakland over Cincinnati should be a real wake-up call, not unlike the time that one girlfriend of mine left me for a class Q sex offender who lived in his mother's basement.

Why?  Were the Raiders in any better of shape than the Bengals were and have been?  If this was about tiring of being on a loser team with a horrible owner, he didn't do himself any favors by agreeing to go to the Raiders of all places.  

(07-29-2015, 01:17 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Why?  Were the Raiders in any better of shape than the Bengals were and have been?  If this was about tiring of being on a loser team with a horrible owner, he didn't do himself any favors by agreeing to go to the Raiders of all places.  

In all fairness in the 4 years since Carson left he's only been on a non-competitive team once and that was because the spawn of Al Davis decided to blow things up rather than give Hue and Palmer a whole year to make it work.

Carson is actually in a place now, and was in 2013 and 2014 where the general consensus was that his team can make a legit Super Bowl push IF he stays on the field, so it's not like he's battling Geno Smith or EJ Manuel for a temporary starting gig and grasping at paychecks while he runs out the clock on his career.

If anything I'd say the fact that the Bengals couldn't be post-season relevant with Dalton and Palmer, two QBs that would generate a decent amount of interest with a number of teams for the past 11 years is more of a knock on Mike and Marvin than anything else.

(07-29-2015, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So he was correct to go with the Raiders over the Bengals?

Did you really just say that?

He was already out at that point, so he chose to get back in the game and playing with the Raiders was his way out of Browns clutches. He walked away from a TON of money. Things had to be REALLY bad for him to make the decisions he did. And to this day we still haven't won a playoff game with Marvin. 

Why do you think he walked away? What is your guess? 

(07-29-2015, 12:54 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Your stupid line of "I realize it requires more thought" is insulting.  You can excuse away his actions by saying that others also threatened (but did not act), or that he was dealing with such a horrible environment that he would rather sit (quit) than play for this team is nothing but that, excuses.  Not one other player on the team took his stance, and they all play for the same coach and owner.  Saying that calling him a quitter takes less thought than your excuse making is not accurate.  It may be simple, but it is factual...HE QUIT WHILE UNDER CONTRACT. 

Amazingly, a great deal of the media (ESPN) chose to portray Palmer as the victim.  "It's the Bengals", etc.  I will never accept his actions as anything but cowardly.   If you want to see what a real man, a leader, does in such situations look no further than Kurt Warner.  The Rams and Cardinals were just as big a joke, if not bigger, than the Bengals for some time.  He can in, worked with his team, and took them each to a Super Bowl....and won one of them.

I'm sure there were things Warner didn't like about those franchises.  In fact, I remember seeing a pretty demonstrative spat with Todd Haley in one game, but he never quit.  He won. 

Good points, but the Rams had Vermiel, not Giggles....advantage Rams......had that batshit crazy owner (what was her name), we had Mikey.....push 

.....also, Whisenhunt is probably better than Marv as well....

I also agree with what Carson did and i'm glad he did it!!  Mike Brown and his merry band of "football  geniuses" quit on the team and the fans!! 

(07-29-2015, 11:12 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That is your chosen conclusion, and I disagree with it.  During the 2011 off-season both Carson Palmer and Marvin Lewis raised major concerns about the franchise with Mike Brown.  Mike Brown refused to budge on either and Marvin chose to fall back in line and Carson chose not to.

They both threatened to "quit" as you put it but for some reason only the guy who was actually able to get hired at the same position with another team is demonized while the guy who probably figured it was Bengals-or-nothing stopped making demands and walked back to his cage with his tail between his legs to continue dreaming of the practice facility Mikey won't give him.

The only reason Carson missed game time in 2011 is because Mike Brown would rather win an argument than entertain trade offers.  Carson could have been traded that spring and all this manufactured controversy would have stayed quiet. But just like those neighbors you have that argue as loudly as they want because they don't care what people think of them, the Bengals managed to turn it into yet another player vs. Mike Brown off-season debacle.

That's my take.  I realize it requires more thought than "He quit, he's a quitter" so feel free to dismiss it.

You're right. Marvin made empty threats and Mike Brown called his bluff.  Carson asked for a trade which indicated a willingness to play for any team other than the Bengals. His desire to play for any other NFL team or retire rather than play another down for the Bengals suggests he had zero confidence in the front office or the coaches or both to guide this team to a Super Bowl. His recent remarks reinforce what most suspected was his motivation to leave. Yet, there are some who will forever point the finger of blame elsewhere.

Leadership involves influencing others to perform their best towards achieving a common goal. When did we start to see Mike Brown transfer his duties to others?  About the same time as their consecutive playoff appearances began. It is no coincidence Mike's influence is inversely proportional to the team's success. All that began when Carson told Mike, "Do _________ or trade me."  Bengals' fan should thank Carson.

(07-29-2015, 01:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In all fairness in the 4 years since Carson left he's only been on a non-competitive team once and that was because the spawn of Al Davis decided to blow things up rather than give Hue and Palmer a whole year to make it work.

Carson is actually in a place now, and was in 2013 and 2014 where the general consensus was that his team can make a legit Super Bowl push IF he stays on the field, so it's not like he's battling Geno Smith or EJ Manuel for a temporary starting gig and grasping at paychecks while he runs out the clock on his career.

If anything I'd say the fact that the Bengals couldn't be post-season relevant with Dalton and Palmer, two QBs that would generate a decent amount of interest with a number of teams for the past 11 years is more of a knock on Mike and Marvin than anything else.

Carson didn't leave the Bengals for the Cardinals.  He left for the Raiders.  He was traded by the Raiders to the Cardinals.  His replacement has started 4 straight playoff games in that stretch.  How many has he started?  

oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:You're right. Marvin made empty threats and Mike Brown called his bluff.  Carson asked for a trade which indicated a willingness to play for any team other than the Bengals. His desire to play for any other NFL team or retire rather than play another down for the Bengals suggests he had zero confidence in the front office or the coaches or both to guide this team to a Super Bowl. His recent remarks reinforce what most suspected was his motivation to leave. Yet, there are some who will forever point the finger of blame elsewhere.

Leadership involves influencing others to perform their best towards achieving a common goal. When did we start to see Mike Brown transfer his duties to others?  About the same time as their consecutive playoff appearances began. It is no coincidence Mike's influence is inversely proportional to the team's success. All that began when Carson told Mike, "Do _________ or trade me."  Bengals' fan should thank Carson.

I absolutely agree with you and others in this thread.

(07-29-2015, 02:19 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Carson didn't leave the Bengals for the Cardinals.  He left for the Raiders.  He was traded by the Raiders to the Cardinals.  His replacement has started 4 straight playoff games in that stretch.  How many has he started?  

How many of those playoff games did his replacement look even remotely decent?  :snark:

Palmer is officially back in my good graces thanks to finally clearing up what some of us suspected was the true problem (management) rather than quitting because somebody may have thrown garbage on his lawn or booed him. ("fans")



Welcome back to the family #9, have a seat next to Dillon. Carl Pickens where you at?

(07-29-2015, 03:34 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: Palmer is officially back in my good graces thanks to finally clearing up what some of us suspected was the true problem (management) rather than quitting because somebody may have thrown garbage on his lawn or booed him.



Welcome back to the family #9, have a seat next to Dillon. Carl Pickens where you at?

Tossin' the ol' pill around with Boomer, Spikes, and Lee Johnson....

(07-29-2015, 03:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Tossin' the ol' pill around with Boomer, Spikes, and Lee Johnson....

Well at least he isn't still hiding out in the attic. I would call that progress.. 

(07-29-2015, 03:18 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: How many of those playoff games did his replacement look even remotely decent?  :snark:

Besides the point.  :snark: