(03-15-2017, 01:12 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: But that's where the similarity ends.  Mike Brown is only concerned with the bottom line, and he's only been concerned about competing since the NFL told him he had to.  So now he "competes," but doesn't care to win.  Also, Dunlap is one of the key pieces on the team.  If one of the key people in your business, one who is responsible for making you money, wasn't happy, you would hopefully try to fix that.  Saying "Shut up and do your job," is not the answer.  They would most likely leave.

This is why I said if Dunlap asked and was denied then I have issue. 

As to the leaving part: For $8 mil a year I just might shut up and do my job. 

(03-15-2017, 01:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I find it funny that a small handful of people quickly turn on a player when the player questions management. Whose side are we on? Has the management of this team provided reasons to have blind faith? Mike Brown certainly hasn't. Marv is a .500 coach with no playoff wins.

I'd argue that Carlos Dunlap has "done his job" better than any of the people running this franchise. I trust him, just as I trusted Palmer, Dillon, Pickens, Takeo, Chad, Boomer and every other player Mike Brown has pissed off. Open your eyes people. How many players need to get pissed before you realize something is wrong?

Gio has also (somewhat) spoke up about it as well. 

Flowers did too. 

Simply put, it's not a good look for this FO. 

(03-15-2017, 01:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You have a good point here. We're not talking about average Joe at normal job. An NFL player of Dunlap's caliber will always be in high demand and he can take his services elsewhere if he wants. You can't just treat these players like replaceable peons. They can and will leave.

Some average Joes out here in the real world aren't as replaceable as their superiors think they are.  Business relationships, and the ability to have a following among the rank and file, are often made on the front lines, and customers and other employees are likely to follow that Joe if he leaves to go work for your competition.  ESPECIALLY if that Joe has a vendetta, strong work ethic, and can be a vindictive prick when he wants to be.  Never underestimate Joe.....

(03-15-2017, 01:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Some average Joes out here in the real world aren't as replaceable as their superiors think they are.  Business relationships, and the ability to have a following among the rank and file, are often made on the front lines, and customers and other employees are likely to follow that Joe if he leaves to go work for your competition.  ESPECIALLY if that Joe has a vendetta, strong work ethic, and can be a vindictive prick when he wants to be.  Never underestimate Joe.....

You a union guy? No?

Hush yer trap and get back to work. 

(03-15-2017, 01:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is why I said if Dunlap asked and was denied then I have issue. 

As to the leaving part: For $8 mil a year I just might shut up and do my job. 

The bolded part of your post got me to thinking.  Back when Carlos was signed to his current deal, we were all quite surprised that he agreed to such a team friendly deal, without a lengthy negotiation process.  I remember being nervous that he would just play out his deal, and go after the biggest money elsewhere.  Does anyone else feel like perhaps the organization sold Carlos on the idea that if he stayed for a moderate deal, that the team had a plan to get all the pieces together to make a Super Bowl run?  Seems to me that Geno, and then Boling, Andy, AJ Green, and Burfict all signed deals that were friendlier to the general welfare of the team, than if they went and sought max contracts on the open market.

Perhaps Dunlap is the only one willing to be vocal about the team not holding up their end of the "plan"?

(03-15-2017, 01:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The bolded part of your post got me to thinking.  Back when Carlos was signed to his current deal, we were all quite surprised that he agreed to such a team friendly deal, without a lengthy negotiation process.  I remember being nervous that he would just play out his deal, and go after the biggest money elsewhere.  Does anyone else feel like perhaps the organization sold Carlos on the idea that if he stayed for a moderate deal, that the team had a plan to get all the pieces together to make a Super Bowl run?  Seems to me that Geno, and then Boling, Andy, AJ Green, and Burfict all signed deals that were friendlier to the general welfare of the team, than if they went and sought max contracts on the open market.

Perhaps Dunlap is the only one willing to be vocal about the team not holding up their end of the "plan"?

Solid point.....you're exactly right about all of the deals you mention here as well.  I'm thinking those guys won't come so cheap this next time around.

(03-14-2017, 08:01 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm afraid Sunset that we're seeing exactly that.

This team took a fatal shot to the head in the last playoff loss. It, like an elephant, has kept staggering and running awhile after the fact. This is the part where it finally falls over.

This is so true and the only way to save the elephant after the ridiculous meltdown against Pittsburgh was to fire Marv the next day.

Truly there is no other pro or college team that would not have fired Marv other than the Bengals.

Not firing Marv proved there is no accountability and that organization is not committed to excellence.

Don't this for a second that retaining Marv and lack of accountability did onto play a role in Z and Whit leaving and it is going to play a bigger role with our next group of superior players when their contracts run out.

To anyone that's criticizing Carlos for publicly stating that he 'doesn't see the plan'...would you be equally critical if publicly stated that he 'liked the plan'?

(03-15-2017, 01:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The bolded part of your post got me to thinking.  Back when Carlos was signed to his current deal, we were all quite surprised that he agreed to such a team friendly deal, without a lengthy negotiation process.  I remember being nervous that he would just play out his deal, and go after the biggest money elsewhere.  Does anyone else feel like perhaps the organization sold Carlos on the idea that if he stayed for a moderate deal, that the team had a plan to get all the pieces together to make a Super Bowl run?  Seems to me that Geno, and then Boling, Andy, AJ Green, and Burfict all signed deals that were friendlier to the general welfare of the team, than if they went and sought max contracts on the open market.

Perhaps Dunlap is the only one willing to be vocal about the team not holding up their end of the "plan"?

My uninformed guess is the majority of players hire an agent and then step back and let the agent do his job.

(03-15-2017, 01:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The bolded part of your post got me to thinking.  Back when Carlos was signed to his current deal, we were all quite surprised that he agreed to such a team friendly deal, without a lengthy negotiation process.  I remember being nervous that he would just play out his deal, and go after the biggest money elsewhere.  Does anyone else feel like perhaps the organization sold Carlos on the idea that if he stayed for a moderate deal, that the team had a plan to get all the pieces together to make a Super Bowl run?  Seems to me that Geno, and then Boling, Andy, AJ Green, and Burfict all signed deals that were friendlier to the general welfare of the team, than if they went and sought max contracts on the open market.

Perhaps Dunlap is the only one willing to be vocal about the team not holding up their end of the "plan"?

Or perhaps the Bengals are a better organization to work for than many give credit. We always see folks coming back home. MJ and Big Dre are just a couple recent examples of players courted by other teams that chose to return home. 

My views about players complaining on social media is unchanging regardless who does it or why. It has been ever since the days of Corey Dillon saying he'd rather work at McDonalds. Of course a lot of this can be contributed to my life in the Military. We just defended folk's rights to speak out such as this' we didn't get to practice it. 

(03-14-2017, 11:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just 15 months ago we had a roster that could have been a serious championship contender if Dalton had not gotten injured.

That should have beaten the Steelers except for the meltdown which is all a result of awful leadership by a coach with an unprecedented record for losing playoff games and losing to main rival who cannot get fired regardless of his unprecedented poor performance

If the awful flaws in this organization truly are not obvious to you than I wonder if you are DennyG in disguise


No objective person can defend continuing Marc as the coach or what they have done this year failing to extend or franchise Whit and Z who were the only two above average lineman on an awful line.

(03-15-2017, 02:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: To anyone that's criticizing Carlos for publicly stating that he 'doesn't see the plan'...would you be equally critical if publicly stated that he 'liked the plan'?

You just can take part of the quote. To be a correlation you would have to ask if he said: "I see the plan and that is my role". and yes I would be equally critical of such a statement. 

Here's 'the plan', Carlos. When you live to be in your early 30's, we're gonna move on from you. Meanwhile, do your best at your position and we'll be happy. Unless we're not.

Get it? Got it? Good!

I'm not criticizing Dunlap's tweet--damf I see "the plan" either--but I hope he and others take over some leadership. I see the players doing as much as the coaches to hold the team accountable. Lawd knows who's going to hold the coaches and front office accountable. That's the biggest problem, as I see it.

So who are the leaders of the team these days, anyway?

(03-15-2017, 01:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Some average Joes out here in the real world aren't as replaceable as their superiors think they are.  Business relationships, and the ability to have a following among the rank and file, are often made on the front lines, and customers and other employees are likely to follow that Joe if he leaves to go work for your competition.  ESPECIALLY if that Joe has a vendetta, strong work ethic, and can be a vindictive prick when he wants to be.  Never underestimate Joe.....

You are 1000% correct, it is how I make a living (Executive Recruiter).  Dunlap is a key member of this team, he's not a special teams player or someone who was just drafted last year.  Should he be consulted on every move that is made?  No, certainly not.  Should he, and others, at least have an idea where the organization is headed, what "the plan" is?  Yes, without question.  Managers who make decisions without regard for others, who assume the workers will fall in line and be happy collecting a paycheck are normally not very successful.

Some people have brought up the Patriots.  First off, other than the fact they are both franchises within the NFL, the Bengals and Patriots have almost nothing in common.  Second, and more importantly, they get the benefit of the doubt because of their past success.  They get more leeway, players and personnel are more likely to trust "the process" when that process has actually yielded success.  And for anyone touting five straight Wild Card losses, does that really count as success anywhere other than Cincinnati?

(03-15-2017, 02:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You just can take part of the quote. To be a correlation you would have to ask if he said: "I see the plan and that is my role". and yes I would be equally critical of such a statement. 

So, if he said 'I fully endorse the plan but that's not my role'...would you be criticizing him? 

(03-15-2017, 02:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Or perhaps the Bengals are a better organization to work for than many give credit. We always see folks coming back home. MJ and Big Dre are just a couple recent examples of players courted by other teams that chose to return home. 

My views about players complaining on social media is unchanging regardless who does it or why. It has been ever since the days of Corey Dillon saying he'd rather work at McDonalds. Of course a lot of this can be contributed to my life in the Military. We just defended folk's rights to speak out such as this' we didn't get to practice it. 

Sorry, but these are not the greatest examples.  MJ left and was a huge flop in Tampa.  I saw last night that Dre has slipped in his PFF grade every single year since 2012, plus he has had a number of injuries.  Neither of these guys were highly sought after players when they came back.

(03-15-2017, 02:20 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: That can be the correlation if that's how you choose to parse it.

So, if he said 'I fully 'endorse' the plan but that not my role'...you would be criticizing him? 

Actally it's the correlation is you use to entire sentence; as is your follow up hypothetical in this post.

No because he understands what his role is. The reason I am critical of the statement he actuaiiy made, is because he asserts it is his role to see the plan, by saying "I guess it's not my role". All I've said is you are correct Carlos it is not your role. 

(03-15-2017, 01:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is why I said if Dunlap asked and was denied then I have issue. 

As to the leaving part: For $8 mil a year I just might shut up and do my job. 

Not if someone else will give you more, or the same AND a chance to get a ring.

From my time in management when an employee who is one of the leaders among his peers is interested in "the plan" it has been because he is committed to what we are doing and cares.  These folks aren't looking for the nuts and bolts of all our contracts. They are interested in the plan because they know that by having a better understanding of where the company is, and where it is going, they can contribute more effectively and increase their worth to the company and their own earning potential. It falls on management to foster this understanding of the plan, even at a rudimentary level.  Carlos saying this indicates to me that management is not conveying any information about their plans.  You want guys like Carlos to buy into the plan.  He's a leader on the team.  Nothing is worse for a business or a team than a group of disgruntled leaders free lancing and undermining leadership because they have been alienated. Management doesn't have to open the books to the leaders, but they do need to have them on board and showing them that they will be put into a position to succeed.  And success equals money for everyone.

Now you will, of course, have those employees who want to know the plan so they can tell you how they would do it better all the while not doing their own job. But I don't see that as the case here.