(03-15-2017, 02:22 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Sorry, but these are not the greatest examples.  MJ left and was a huge flop in Tampa.  I saw last night that Dre has slipped in his PFF grade every single year since 2012, plus he has had a number of injuries.  Neither of these guys were highly sought after players when they came back.

MJ was only a FA for 4 days when he re-signed here and Future HOF Head Coach Mike Zimmer badly wanted him. He just chose to "come home".  I'm not sure I could find a better example if I made up one. 

(03-15-2017, 02:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Actally it's the correlation is you use to entire sentence; as is your follow up hypothetical in this post.

No because he understands what his role is. The reason I am critical of the statement he actuaiiy made, is because he asserts it is his role to see the plan, by saying "I guess it's not my role". All I've said is you are correct Carlos it is not your role. 

Yes, Carlos stated that it wasn't his role to know the plan, so what's there to be critical of?

Stating that he doesn't 'see the plan' is merely an observation, which was clearly followed by the caveat.

To criticize him for that seems extremely silly and petty in my opinion.

(03-15-2017, 02:18 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You are 1000% correct, it is how I make a living (Executive Recruiter).  Dunlap is a key member of this team, he's not a special teams player or someone who was just drafted last year.  Should he be consulted on every move that is made?  No, certainly not.  Should he, and others, at least have an idea where the organization is headed, what "the plan" is?  Yes, without question.  Managers who make decisions without regard for others, who assume the workers will fall in line and be happy collecting a paycheck are normally not very successful.

Some people have brought up the Patriots.  First off, other than the fact they are both franchises within the NFL, the Bengals and Patriots have almost nothing in common.  Second, and more importantly, they get the benefit of the doubt because of their past success.  They get more leeway, players and personnel are more likely to trust "the process" when that process has actually yielded success.  And for anyone touting five straight Wild Card losses, does that really count as success anywhere other than Cincinnati?

Right, because if I'm the rank and file, and I see what I perceive as bad decisions, that could ultimately lead to the demise of my company, I may be inclined to leave for greener pastures and leave you with the underachievers, absentee employees, and brown nosers that can't get hired anywhere else.  Maybe the plan is to shed dead weight and recruit better people, if that were the case, I'd let my performers know so they don't leave.  It's just good business.  People are what drive the machine, GOOD people are what make it thrive.

(03-15-2017, 02:28 PM)Burma Wrote: From my time in management when an employee who is one of the leaders among his peers is interested in "the plan" it has been because he is committed to what we are doing and cares.  These folks aren't looking for the nuts and bolts of all our contracts. They are interested in the plan because they know that by having a better understanding of where the company is, and where it is going, they can contribute more effectively and increase their worth to the company and their own earning potential. It falls on management to foster this understanding of the plan, even at a rudimentary level.  Carlos saying this indicates to me that management is not conveying any information about their plans.  You want guys like Carlos to buy into the plan.  He's a leader on the team.  Nothing is worse for a business or a team than a group of disgruntled leaders free lancing and undermining leadership because they have been alienated. Management doesn't have to open the books to the leaders, but they do need to have them on board and showing them that they will be put into a position to succeed.  And success equals money for everyone.

Now you will, of course, have those employees who want to know the plan so they can tell you how they would do it better all the while not doing their own job. But I don't see that as the case here.

EXACTLY.  Anyone who has ever worked in management should be familiar with this practice and retaining good, productive employees....i.e. team leaders.

Players "come back home" because they know they'll never get cut. Even if production slips. Who wouldn't return to an organization that will pay you millions and not demand accountability?

(03-14-2017, 10:01 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I don't know.

We had Palmer, Chad, and even TO be disgruntled and let it be known. Only change was Bob Bratkowski got fired. That's it.

Only the 2nd time Mike Brown has fired an offensive coordinator.

And that only lasted a couple of years, Brat's been back now for a couple of years, not in the same capacity as before though.

(03-15-2017, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: MJ was only a FA for 4 days when he re-signed here and Future HOF Head Coach Mike Zimmer badly wanted him. He just chose to "come home".  I'm not sure I could find a better example if I made up one. 

The question would be how many offers did he have during that four day period?  I'm sure his agents had a very good idea of what his market value was.

Are you joking with the "Future HOF Head Coach"?

(03-15-2017, 04:18 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: The question would be how many offers did he have during that four day period?  I'm sure his agents had a very good idea of what his market value was.

Are you joking with the "Future HOF Head Coach"?

Yes, Bfine is joking. He thinks the love that Zimmer gets around here is over the top. He's like Fred, in regards to playing Devil's Advocate on various topics.

Another thing which I don't think has been mentioned. Carlos is a guy who never says boo. There might be some significance to the fact that he is speaking up now. And isn't he a team leader now?

(03-14-2017, 07:39 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

I don't see the plan but guess that's not my role to either.

— Carlos Dunlap (@Carlos_Dunlap) March 14, 2017

This is not good, looks like i thought and the team is starting to implode after losing Whitworth.

Had to bring that guy back, had to. The FO is going to have to do something drastic to get ahold of this.

This could just be the beginning..

(03-15-2017, 04:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And that only lasted a couple of years, Brat's been back now for a couple of years, not in the same capacity as before though.

???

He was the WR coach for the Titans last year.

(03-15-2017, 04:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And that only lasted a couple of years, Brat's been back now for a couple of years, not in the same capacity as before though.

He's probably the "Shadow OC"  Like the "shadow government."

(03-15-2017, 08:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The Brown family doesexhibit this approach.  That was how they were able to make the playoffs so many years in a row and put together a roster in '15 that was championship quality.

Just because the Brown family does not hand over executive control to players and/or message board members does not mean they are not trying to win.  Just because they do not do everything you want does not mean they are not trying to win.  Just a year ago people like you were claiming that if the Bengals did not cut Dre Kirkpatric then they did not want to win.  Fans have been claiming that Bengals did not want to win because they continued to keep Peko on the payroll, but now a team that just won the Super bowl a year ago agreedto pay him more than the Bengals did.  MOst of the people around here who claim that it is so impossible for them to be wrong that the only way you coiuld disagree with any of their football opinions is if you did not even want to win usually have no idea what they are talking about.

If you were to ask any of the Patriots after the Super bowl who the team is going to acquire and who they were going to get rid of they would have all said that they did not know what the plan was for thjis offseason.  They know that it is not there job to run the front office.

You totally missed the point. Dunlap isn't asking to be privy to all the dealmaking and contract negotiations. The plan, in this case, merely implies that the team is absolutely committed to winning a championship, and the team goal outweighs any individual goals. The teams I listed exbit this very strategy each year. The Players on those teams know its championship or nothing, period. There is no moral victory for finishing in the Top 40% (e.g. a 1st round Playoff loss). The Bengals FO is not exhibiting the outward commitment to bringing championship football to the Queen City. Carlos is questioning the desire of the FO after a disastrous beginning to Free Agency and a middling 2016 season. I don't see how this is so hard to comprehend. The players are frustrated. The fans (except DennyG and Fred) are frustrated. The talk show hosts are frustrated. The overarching plan does not appear to be winning Lombardis.

(03-14-2017, 11:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just 15 months ago we had a roster that could have been a serious championship contender if Dalton had not gotten injured.

True, and we had a team that advanced in the playoffs right before Mike Brown took over
And we had a team that could have been a serious championship contender if Palmer had not gotten injured
And now with the 2015 Dalton thing, yes. 

Still, I bet even Matt Millen could win a playoff game as a GM if he were to be given 26 years at it.

(03-15-2017, 05:34 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: ???

He was the WR coach for the Titans last year.

Yea wow. Surprise.
For 2014 and 2015 he was here.

(03-15-2017, 01:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I find it funny that a small handful of people quickly turn on a player when Pthe player questions management. Whose side are we on? Has the management of this team provided reasons to have blind faith? Mike Brown certainly hasn't. Marv is a .500 coach with no playoff wins.

I'd argue that Carlos Dunlap has "done his job" better than any of the people running this franchise. I trust him, just as I trusted Palmer, Dillon, Pickens, Takeo, Chad, Boomer and every other player Mike Brown has pissed off. Open your eyes people. How many players need to get pissed before you realize something is wrong?

Exactly.  Outside free agents will see this and think twice about coming year if the current group of core players are questioning what's going on around here.  Slippery slope.

Lordy, 9 pages and still going strong! Has anyone mentioned that Dunlap saying he doesn't see the plan may be less of him saying "I'm not being kept in the loop with the owner and GM about all of our moves, as I assume I should be" and more "I don't like what I'm seeing, so I'm just going to have to hope there is something to it that I don't see that justifies what look like bad moves."

The reaction sort of reminds me of watching this video of Jets draft blunders. After some of the more noteworthy ones (some no-name TE over Warren Sap, Ken O'Brien over Dan Marino) 99% of the fans are screaming and writhing in agony but they manage to find that one guy who says "I don't see why they made this decision, but obviously the Jets know something we don't."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98

It's good ol' optimism and/or questioning formed in a diplomatic manner. Perhaps a more accurate way to phrase this would be "Boy, I really hope this isn't what it looks like, but I'm almost certain it is."

(03-15-2017, 11:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No they don't.

If the Patriots had decided that a guy Whit's age was not worth $13 million guaranteed they would have been called brilliant.  The only way you can say the decision was stupid is if you just automatically say any move is stupid if the Bengals do it.

The Pats also have cheaper, younger, competent players waiting in the wings when the Logan Mankins' and Sebastian Vollmer's are let go. Insert Marcus Cannon, don't miss a beat. The Bengals do not consistently replace talent with cheaper talent on the o line, as do the Pats. The Bengals replace talent with cheaper contracts. Hence, the downgrade in line play when the Dennis Roland/Eric Ghiuichuc/Nate Livings/Christian Westerman/Cedric Ogbuehi's of the world get inserted into starting roles. Sometimes, the Bengals do have younger, talented guys ready to plug in, but nowhere near like the Pats. Belichick >>>>>>>Brown as GM.

It seems like a guy who's getting tired of losing leaders and young guys.

Also, he isn't alone.

?

— Giovani Bernard (@G_Bernard25) March 9, 2017

 

Lord Knows I'm biting my tongue

— Marquis Flowers (@MrHitThat_53) March 15, 2017

Even Willie Anderson too some jabs at the Bengals the other day on Adam Jones' instagram photo.

(03-14-2017, 07:39 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

I don't see the plan but guess that's not my role to either.

— Carlos Dunlap (@Carlos_Dunlap) March 14, 2017

mmm...just catching upon this thread and a few thoughts.

- In 2010 lockout  Whitworth and Peko played a massive role in keeping the team moving forward and establishing  a 'team first' , no ego culture....ironic that their departure in 2017 appears to be having the opposite effect.

- I don't like players using social media in this way.  You may not be happy with the way things are playing out on the team but its naive and perhaps selfish to make such an ambiguous comment.  You've just created additional distraction and media noise for the rest of the organization to deal with.

- This team needs a fast , winning start to next season. Winning cures all ills , if they start poorly this type of thing could become common place and it could turn into a soap opera.

- Marvin should have left/ be fired as HC.  Lots of people have strong opinions on his abilities (lack of) as a big time coach but his one saving grace was keeping everyone moving forward and the previous dysfunction at bay. If a senior player like Dunlap is 
sharing this then Marv may be losing his ability to get buy in, senior player support too

- Carlos D may have put his bengals future in doubt - Mike Brown will remember this, he really values loyalty and people towing the line..