(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

On the Kirkpatrick one Jim...fans miss that the salary cap has risen by $47 million since 2012. This would be a great thing to do an article on and if you PM me I'd be happy to assist. That (in theory) means that the average contract has risen by 39% since then. ($120 million cap then vs $167 million cap now.)

Essentially, fans would have been ok with paying Kirkpatrick $7.5 million in 2012...but that is equivalent to $10.5 million now.

NFL inflation.

(03-13-2017, 11:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Here's my view (and I feel like I'm a pretty rational fan):

1.  Whit leaving didn't bother me THAT much.  He's how old?  I would have liked to have seen another one year deal for him, but so be it.

2.  Zeitler leaving really pissed me off.  The team sits here and keeps saying "we draft, develop and sign our own."  Well, not this time.  Don't tell me that you don't  "value" the position either, that's a load of crap.

3.  Dre was a must sign.  I thought he played pretty good last year and the year before.  You can't let these young guys walk.

My only real complaint is that we were fed this whole "we sign our own" stuff and then it doesn't happen.  Worse yet, we keep getting this shit about the team not signing any UFAs because it would affect comp picks.  That's such a garbage excuse.

Everyone looks at Zeitler becoming the highest paid Guard and I think we agree that it was too much. BUT...extending him before he hit free agency would have been the play. Supposedly the Bengals offerred him slightly more than Bolings contract which had to be an insult to Z.

Had they offerred him $8-9 million a year BEFORE DeCastro signed his deal...maybe he accepts it.

Guys like Dunlap signed contracts for less than they would have got on the open market.

(03-16-2017, 10:50 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Everyone looks at Zeitler becoming the highest paid Guard and I think we agree that it was too much. BUT...extending him before he hit free agency would have been the play. Supposedly the Bengals offerred him slightly more than Bolings contract which had to be an insult to Z.

Had they offerred him $8-9 million a year BEFORE DeCastro signed his deal...maybe he accepts it.

Guys like Dunlap signed contracts for less than they would have got on the open market.

Exactly what I have said in numerous threads.....people just seem to NOT want to acknowledge this......

(03-16-2017, 12:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly what I have said in numerous threads.....people just seem to NOT want to acknowledge this......

People also don't acknowledge that the cap has risen from $120 million in 2012 to $167 million in 2017. That's $47 million in 5 years or 39%.

Teams have more money to spend...which drives prices up theoretically by 39%.

Thus a guy that made $8 million in 2012...makes $12 million now.

In 2012 if I told you we signed Zeitler for 5 years and $40 million...I think people would generally think that was a fare deal.

Well, that cap rise has equated to that being $60 million now.

(03-16-2017, 10:50 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Everyone looks at Zeitler becoming the highest paid Guard and I think we agree that it was too much. BUT...extending him before he hit free agency would have been the play. Supposedly the Bengals offerred him slightly more than Bolings contract which had to be an insult to Z.

Had they offerred him $8-9 million a year BEFORE DeCastro signed his deal...maybe he accepts it.

Guys like Dunlap signed contracts for less than they would have got on the open market.

That's also how Mike Brown operates. He's more than willing to keep our stars if they're more than willing to take below their market value. If Dunlap would've turned down that contract like Michael Johnson, they both would not have been in stripes the following season.

(03-16-2017, 12:16 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: That's also how Mike Brown operates. He's more than willing to keep our stars if they're more than willing to take below their market value. If Dunlap would've turned down that contract like Michael Johnson, they both would not have been in stripes the following season.

Oh it was likely one of the other. They likely offered them both the same deal...and saw which one would take it.

They also bring in 2-3 free agents at the same position and see who will sign for less. Totally disregarding fit.

Like a few years ago when they brought in Dansby and Harrison. (Dansby was the better fit at the time...but wanted more.)

Robinson, Minter, and Barwin are in the same boat.

(03-16-2017, 10:22 AM)samhain Wrote: I doubt Jim really cares enough to apologize.  He's a dude with a job, not a Bengals fan.  Didn't he work the beat in Green Bay before this? I'd imagine if the L.A. Times offered him a job covering the Rams or Chargers for significantly more than he's getting here, he'd be gone.    

Some of the beat guys are way too easy on this team.  Jim and Dehner in particular, with Paul doing as much as trying to carry water for them in their not-so-smart Whitworth disinformation tactic.  Others like P Doc and some of the broadcast guys like Broo and Egger are a little tougher on them.  

Understandable, I guess.  It's probably hard to get great access to an organization if you piss them off by being critical.  Jim isn't Hobson.  He's more Hobson lite.  He doesn't get paid by the team, but he does seem to tread very lightly in his criticisms.

This team would get absolutely murdered by any big-city sports media for what they've done this offseason.  

My point isn't whether or not Jim O cares I don't expect him to but a lot of the stuff he was saying is the same stuff people get called out for around here that usually ends with people saying they are content with losing, have been bungalized and yada yada.

I think the part in bold is totally made up. Maybe you need to come to terms with the fact that people who are more educated than you or me about how the team is run aren't as critical as some are here.

(03-16-2017, 12:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh it was likely one of the other. They likely offered them both the same deal...and saw which one would take it.

They also bring in 2-3 free agents at the same position and see who will sign for less. Totally disregarding fit.

Like a few years ago when they brought in Dansby and Harrison. (Dansby was the better fit at the time...but wanted more.)

Robinson, Minter, and Barwin are in the same boat.

Exactly right. It's so damn frustrating. I would prefer Robinson or Minter (both preferably), but I'd take Barwin if he can improve our pass rush. However, we'll sign 1 of them at the very most.

(03-16-2017, 12:27 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Exactly right. It's so damn frustrating. I would prefer Robinson or Minter (both preferably), but I'd take Barwin if he can improve our pass rush. However, we'll sign 1 of them at the very most.

I did read that losing so many free agents makes them want to try to sign an extra free agent or two as the comp picks won't be in jeopardy.

I also read somewhere that comp picks only look at your Top 4 signings.

(03-16-2017, 12:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I did read that losing so many free agents makes them want to try to sign an extra free agent or two as the comp picks won't be in jeopardy.

I also read somewhere that comp picks only look at your Top 4 signings.

I believe that's right because you can only get a maximum of 4 comp picks.

I would just like to see us step up and try to bring an impact free agent in. Doesn't have to be a huge signing or even day 1. Just a guy that is in or coming into his prime that has a record of success that could make a real impact to our team. Former players and past their prime vets just isn't producing the results we should be looking for.

(03-16-2017, 12:42 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I believe that's right because you can only get a maximum of 4 comp picks.

I would just like to see us step up and try to bring an impact free agent in. Doesn't have to be a huge signing or even day 1. Just a guy that is in or coming into his prime that has a record of success that could make a real impact to our team. Former players and past their prime vets just isn't producing the results we should be looking for.

Yes - I'd like to see us say 'Wow. That guys fits our system. We want to sign him!' Instead of picking through the leftovers that haven't signed elsewhere.

(03-16-2017, 12:35 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote:  


(Waiting for someone to call Jim O an apologist and accuse him of being content with losing.)

Meh. I think he was very fair and admitted that some of the gripes are very legitimate. 

Particularly the way the Bengals avoid free agents to protect compensatory picks and having no backup plan for Ogbuehi.

(03-16-2017, 12:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes - I'd like to see us say 'Wow. That guys fits our system. We want to sign him!' Instead of picking through the leftovers that haven't signed elsewhere.

One day, there will be an apacolyptic league, and scavengers will roam the FA wastelands......fear not brothers, for we will be KINGS!

(03-16-2017, 01:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Meh. I think he was very fair and admitted that some of the gripes are very legitimate. 

Particularly the way the Bengals avoid free agents to protect compensatory picks and having no backup plan for Ogbuehi.

Agreed his input is appreciated.

(03-10-2017, 10:49 AM)Wyche Wrote: All true, and Pacman should be gone too.  Now that you've decided to "bank on Ced", Drek should be gone too to save for the future.  I mean you're rolling with a HUGE ? at LT, and a big one at RG to save money (that was supposedly allocated in rollover money for the RG years ago, BTW), why not go with ? in the secondary too and save that coin to not extend Burfict and Eifert?  

What would everyone think if tomorrow morning we woke up to the news that the Bengals had released Adam Jones, Maualuga, and Jeremy Hill?  

I would be pretty excited thinking they were clearing cap space for a FA move to shore up LT, and I really see no value whatsoever to those players.  

Also, with respect to the article from Doc on another thread where he coined the nickname:  "two-yard Jeremy", I would retort with the fact that he almost never gets two yards in short yardage situation.  Especially the goal line.  

(03-17-2017, 09:09 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: What would everyone think if tomorrow morning we woke up to the news that the Bengals had released Adam Jones, Maualuga, and Jeremy Hill?  

I would be pretty excited thinking they were clearing cap space for a FA move to shore up LT, and I really see no value whatsoever to those players.  

Also, with respect to the article from Doc on another thread where he coined the nickname:  "two-yard Jeremy", I would retort with the fact that he almost never gets two yards in short yardage situation.  Especially the goal line.  

Hill won't be released. Not after losing Burkhead and having Gio coming off of a severe injury. Hill is closer to being the starter than being released. Quite frankly...I don't think Hill is as bad as people on the board do. I think the issue is the O-line.

Maualuga won't be released until they sign a veteran that's an upgrade or draft Foster. We still need 2 starting LB's IF Maualuga isn't one. And judging by them looking at Robinson, Barwin, and Minter...they may not feel that Vigil is a starter either.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

These are fair questions, and I am not opposed to those moves or the Zeitler move at all....but the problem I have is that they continue to pay flaming turds like Adam Jones, Maualuga, and Jeremy Hill when they have absolutely no value (and the Jones bit makes me really mad that his behavior isn't immediately punished).

Those salaries prevent them from signing players that could really help this team.  Conner Barwin?  I would feel a lot better with him rushing the passer next year on passing downs than Michael "I'm going to take a 10 yard arc upfield and I might reach the QB in 8 seconds" Johnson.  I figured a very early pick would be used on a DE, but now, because of a lack of free agent funds (or an obsession with compensatory picks) won't happen and we will be entering the draft with another key need....IMHO, our biggest need next to LT.  

I'm pretty blessed with a good job and I was able to get a scholarship for swimming to pay for my college, so I got a nice head start from that, graduating with no debt.  However a lot of this area is what you would consider "blue collar" and I think they have a real problem with paying people that show up fat, have a severe lack of respect for authority, or simply aren't remotely effective in their job being paid millions of dollars.  The Brown family IS NOT CHEAP.  They are actually letting loyalty affect their judgement on paying these players and I think a lot of folks take exception with it.  They would much rather see effort guys like Rex (Sexy) Burkhead get paid.  

Just my two cents.  Thanks for all you do, Jim.  

(03-17-2017, 09:18 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Hill won't be released. Not after losing Burkhead and having Gio coming off of a severe injury. Hill is closer to being the starter than being released. Quite frankly...I don't think Hill is as bad as people on the board do. I think the issue is the O-line.

Maualuga won't be released until they sign a veteran that's an upgrade or draft Foster. We still need 2 starting LB's IF Maualuga isn't one. And judging by them looking at Robinson, Barwin, and Minter...they may not feel that Vigil is a starter either.

I disagree.  Even Hobson said Hill would likely have to fight for playing time.  We know they are drafting at least one RB.  And Sexy ran like the line was ok...so how much of it was the turd (Ced) and how much was Hill?  We still won't have an answer if he is here sucking ass next season...but, hey, we can look forward to one 100 yard performance against the Browns.

Wait, the Browns are improving their roster and have a ton of early picks.  Nevermind.  

Oh, and the Bengals have already said Vigil will likely start at SAM and be in the nickel package, which is 70% of snaps (just nickel).  They will surely be double-dipping at LB position in the draft.

(03-17-2017, 09:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  Even Hobson said Hill would likely have to fight for playing time.  We know they are drafting at least one RB.  And Sexy ran like the line was ok...so how much of it was the turd (Ced) and how much was Hill?  We still won't have an answer if he is here sucking ass next season...but, hey, we can look forward to one 100 yard performance against the Browns.

Wait, the Browns are improving their roster and have a ton of early picks.  Nevermind.  

Oh, and the Bengals have already said Vigil will likely start at SAM and be in the nickel package, which is 70% of snaps (just nickel).  They will surely be double-dipping at LB position in the draft.

I don't like relying on Hill as a starter either...but we know they'll bring a rookie RB along slowly because he will likely struggle to pass block.

Bernard likely won't be healthy enough to start the season.

That will leave Hill and the rookie. Now if it were Hill, Rex, and a rookie...Hill would have to fight for snaps. With Rex gone...Hill will get atleast some carries...even if a rookie starts.

(03-17-2017, 09:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  Even Hobson said Hill would likely have to fight for playing time.  We know they are drafting at least one RB.  And Sexy ran like the line was ok...so how much of it was the turd (Ced) and how much was Hill?  We still won't have an answer if he is here sucking ass next season...but, hey, we can look forward to one 100 yard performance against the Browns.

Wait, the Browns are improving their roster and have a ton of early picks.  Nevermind.  

Oh, and the Bengals have already said Vigil will likely start at SAM and be in the nickel package, which is 70% of snaps (just nickel).  They will surely be double-dipping at LB position in the draft.

I'm not sure they will. They've brought in two veteran LBs so clearly they need one to replace Dansby. But I think they'll draft just one regardless of getting a veteran LB or not.

They have six LB spots. Burfict, Vigil, and VRey are guaranteed.
The other three right now are Maualuga, Flowers, and Dawson.

The Bengals likely will draft one LB that will compete to replace one of the latter three on the roster.
If a veteran is signed, I think Maualuga is cut and then a single rookie draft pick will compete with Flowers and Dawson. The best two get roster spots.