(03-16-2017, 07:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The fans want sacks.

My daughters want cotton candy for breakfast

(03-16-2017, 04:04 PM)Okeana Wrote:   Im still waiting for these magical stats fred was gonna drop.  

I'vbe alreadyn posted the stats on MJ.

Is that what you are talking about?

MJ is a class guy and was always a favorite of mine.

But clearly he is on the decline.

It catches up to us all sooner or later.

Johnson has has one good year. One. Uno. One. I don't care what stats Fred throws out there , or where he even gets them from, Michael Johnson stinks at football. Looks like Tarzan plays like Jane.

MJ = Robert Gaethers 2.0.

(03-16-2017, 11:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My daughters want cotton candy for breakfast

Then give them what they want, Fred!

(03-16-2017, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can not judge a player on a single stat like sacks.


Among all DEs MJ ranked

10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play),

12th in solo tackles,

14th in tipped passes,

15th in QB hurries

19th in total tackles. 

Since some of these are slightly different from yours I will cite my source when I get back to my other computer.  But it is clear that based on production MJ was a pretty solid starting DE.

ok so for the actual numbers

Stuffs/Stuff Yards -  MJ Rank 19th - 5 Stuffs for a Whopping 9 yards

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/stuffs-and-stuff-yards/2016/customize/

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Tackles - MJ Rank 16th - 32 Tackles ( the difference between #16 and #32 is 2 Tackles this is literally one of the most worthless stats )

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-tackles-and-assisted-tackles/2016/customize/

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Passes Defended - MJ had 3 - Hunt had 2 - Dunlap had 15

Im not ranking such a stupid stat

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Hurries - MJ ranked 25th - 17 total hurries - Dunlap is #3 with 29 hurries 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2016/customize/

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Using some fake rankings is not providing statistical data.  Each one of these charts can filter down to only Defensive ends and then be copied onto a spreadsheet to show actual ranking.  
Every single ranking that you posted turns out to be totally false when actually compared to factual data.  Michael Johnson is at most a rotational backup at this stage of his character and aside from 1 or 2 years that's basically all he's ever been.

(03-17-2017, 09:43 AM)Okeana Wrote: ok so for the actual numbers

Stuffs/Stuff Yards -  MJ Rank 19th - 5 Stuffs for a Whopping 9 yards

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/stuffs-and-stuff-yards/2016/customize/


...........................................................................

Using some fake rankings is not providing statistical data.  Each one of these charts can filter down to only Defensive ends and then be copied onto a spreadsheet to show actual ranking.  
Every single ranking that you posted turns out to be totally false when actually compared to factual data.  Michael Johnson is at most a rotational backup at this stage of his character and aside from 1 or 2 years that's basically all he's ever been.

The link you provided shows that MJ ranked 14th in stuffs.

So we both posted numbers that were not correct.

Your links also show that he ranked 22nd in total tackles with 45 and 14th in solo tackles with 32 and 23rd in hurries.

But instead of picking at nits just look at how all of those numbers rank in the top 22 among DEs in the league.

You can not judge a DE just by one stat.  Especially when the very best in the leagu only make about one of those plays a game.  MJ ranks high against the run ( stuffs, solos tackles, total tackles) and high against the pass (hurries, tipped passes).  I am not claiming he is a star.  I am just saying it is much harder to replace guys who produce like that then many people here claim.  That is why most teams only have one and only a few have two.

Most people cherry pick PFF to support an argument. I'd rather trust my own judgement. Then again, I don't always have to be right.

So let me get this right...
Bodine is the highest rated offensive lineman? 

How is Vinnie Rey 3 clicks below burfict? ??? Lol

(03-16-2017, 02:34 PM)Okeana Wrote: QB Hurries - MJ Ranks - 47th among all lineman  - 22nd among Defensive Ends    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2016/

Sack totals Among all Defensive Line players - MJ Ranks 112  / Among DE's 44    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-sacks-and-sack-yards/2016/

Tackles/Asst Tackles -  Among all lineman - MJ Ranks 262  - Among DE's 21 https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-tackles-and-assisted-tackles/2016/customize/

He had zero Fumbles and zero recoveries last year


These stats don't take into consideration level of talent on the defensive line and level of talent in the backfield that increase play duration giving him more overall time than his contemporaries .  Stats don't paint a full picture of a player because of all the other factors that come into play, but in the end of the day do you consider 3.5 sacks and zero fumbles to be an acceptable season for a RDE ?


EDIT:

Just as a quick PFF grade comparison.  Michael Johnson's most important stat as a RDE is sacks.  Compared to every DE Johnson ranked 44 out of 97 which puts him at around 55% among Defensive ends.  So at most you can say his grade should be closer to 55, but even if he has a stat that doesn't mean he won on that play.  For example on his assisted sack last year he could have come in after the sack was established by Atkins or another player.  Without looking at the individual player a stat doesn't give a full picture.

I am more concerned our supposedly great DE scored in low 70's. He made a bunch of money to not be great.

(03-17-2017, 04:59 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: How is Vinnie Rey 3 clicks below burfict? ??? Lol

Vinnie Rey is a good, smart football player.  He is almost never out of position, the only thing that I can knock him on is not having enough ass to be a legit run stuffer.

(03-16-2017, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Looks like this is going to be another one of those threads where everyone jumps in to bash me, yet not one single person actually posts any stats or info that shows that i am wrong.

Actually, the initial post defies you logic that MJ is the 39th best RDE in the league at batting passes, or whatever obscure stat comes out next.  

I'm just kidding, but the overall impressions here are dead on virtually every other spot on the roster.  It isn't hard to believe that their overall impression of MJ is pretty accurate.  The games where I saw MJ actually make a tackle for loss was often a case where his enormous arc that takes him 10 yards past the QB got lucky as the pressure from the opposite side had the QB bail right in to him.   MJ simply offers very little at RDE and it is a critical spot when you run a 4-3 defense and even more so when you have a DC that is reluctant to blitz and relies on the front four for pressure.  He's a great guy but a non-factor on our defense.  

I was hoping for something with Barwin as a situational pass rusher to help out on passing downs, but that has already disappeared.  The two guys that would be huge additions to the Bengals, Allen and Thomas, are almost certain to be gone.  They, and Barnett, are the only players I would think COULD be there at #9 and are worth staying for...

I am still holding out hope for that, but the next best option to me is slide if they are gone and you have a trade partner, get an additional 2nd rounder and take Ross.  

Really shines a light on the weakness of our defense.

It's DE, basically.

Odd that they had Clarke at DT. I guess they had no choice since Peko was the one they would have graded but, alas, he is gone.

I think Billings upgrades that slot and then all we need is a solid DE on the other side to have a B average defense, which is pretty damn impressive.

Our offense is really bad though haha. Those OT ratings. Rough.

(03-17-2017, 05:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am more concerned our supposedly great DE scored in low 70's. He made a bunch of money to not be great.

you mean corner ?  Dre kirkpatrick is in the 70's which is the top 30% of all corners.  Considering he didn't have the best year in 2016 I don't think that grade is to terrible.  I also don't think the Bengals really overpaid for kirkpatrick considering the top end contracts for corners.  

(03-16-2017, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can not judge a player on a single stat like sacks.


Among all DEs MJ ranked

10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play),

12th in solo tackles,

14th in tipped passes,

15th in QB hurries

19th in total tackles. 

Since some of these are slightly different from yours I will cite my source when I get back to my other computer.  But it is clear that based on production MJ was a pretty solid starting DE.

All of these don't take in to account the number of snaps played.  He got to play a ton of snaps.  He simply offers very little in pass rush.  And are these 4-3 DEs or do these numbers include 3-4 DEs?  If you want to compare apples to apples, compare him to other 4-3 RDEs and you will see his is bottom tier.  

(03-17-2017, 11:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But instead of picking at nits just look at how all of those numbers rank in the top 22 among DEs in the league.

Since when is the top 22 of the league, when there are teams that run a 3-4 in this (I believe), a good ranking?  It is bottom third and that is being generous.  With the talent on that line with him, I would expect a lot of players to rank higher. 

I would imagine if you took the time to break down the stats per snap, which would take opportunities in to account, you would see MJ fall to the very bottom and even our own Clarke would pass him.  

Ima need some context to these numbers

(03-18-2017, 12:22 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: All of these don't take in to account the number of snaps played.  He got to play a ton of snaps.  He simply offers very little in pass rush.  And are these 4-3 DEs or do these numbers include 3-4 DEs?  If you want to compare apples to apples, compare him to other 4-3 RDEs and you will see his is bottom tier.  

You can't just make stuff up and claim it is true.

You do the comparisons.