(03-26-2017, 07:58 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If Marvin Jones comes back on this team it won't all of the sudden make this team a super bowl contender. Hell, I don't even know how much better it makes the overall offense. 

Now add an above average offensive lineman or defensive lineman and it's a different story. 

I agree with that. Just saying that a fast #2 WR has more effect on the team than Fred was insinuating.

We needed a deep threat last year badly besides AJ and once Core got some playing time it opened up the Offense quite a bit.

(03-27-2017, 08:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, Manning and Marvin Harrison had nothing to do with that offense.  They would have been helpless without Reggie Wayne.

That is sure what i was getting at.

Geez, get out of here with this crap Fred.

(03-27-2017, 12:44 AM)eoxyod Wrote: I'm not making this an argument of Jones vs LaFell as much as I am making an argument that an invested resource in a young WR is better off now than later. The team should be proactive and search for a replacement when the situation allows for it. Now who knows where the Bengals value some guys in terms of draft grade, but when saying "If the other top options are gone" ignores that, if available (probably not at this point I feel like), a player like Corey Davis is 95% chance the best player on the board for the team, and a necessary addition

I haven't seen many WR's going in the top 10 of mocks though. Mike Williams is about it, and he's been on the fringe of top 10. 

Charlie Campbell has Corey Davis going 27th, behind Williams and John Ross.
Walter has Davis going 28th, also behind Williams and Ross.
Lance Zierlien (NFL.com) has Davis going 28th, also behind Williams and Ross.

3 other NFL.com writers (Bucky Brooks, Daniel Jeremiah and Chad Reuter) have Davis going 13th, 18th and 5th. I'm just not sure Davis will even be the best WR available at 9th overall, let alone the best player. If WR were by far the BPA, by all means go for it, but from what I've read, this is a deep WR draft.

Quote:1. I wouldn't say "pointless". There's more to it than stats, but production is production. I assume by dynamic, you mean speed. I addressed that with jj22.

Dynamic as in drawing 7 DPIs for 111 yards
2. That's just being silly. Did anyone pay attention to Jones with Detroit last year? It was a total disappointment considering what they paid.
New system with different play style. Jones fit our system well and had good chemistry with Dalton. That will only grow with Stafford there
3. Calling LaFell a disappointment is a bit much. For a 3rd round pick he's produced almost 5000 yards and 26 TDs by age 30. He's only missed 8% of his career games compared to 26% for Jones. He was a key player in a championship run while Jones has yet to win a playoff game. He just produced the best season by a Bengals #2 WR since Housh.
That's a hard comparison to take with the fact Jones has had the unfortunate life of being on the Bengals, and LaFell had his success with the GOAT
4. Can't disagree there. 
5. LaFell will turn 31 this year. A 2 year deal with an easy out is pretty standard considering he's not a star.
So there's no long term benefit, in which we still have to hope for luck with a second option through the draft if we won't invest a decent resource into it.

1.  I would have to know how many DPIs Jones and LaFell have had on a yearly basis. I'm going to guess that such a number wouldn't be consistent either way.
2.  Sounds like excuses, eox. He started hot in Detroit and cooled down (understatement), going for a meager 522 yards in the last 13 games. He lost Stafford's trust with drops and inability to beat press coverage. If he was better in our system, why was he only able to produce 816 yards and 4 TDs in 2015? Or 712 yards and 10 TDs (inflated number) in 2013? The guy put up pretty much the same numbers Jerome Simpson and LaFell managed.
3.  It's still hard to consider LaFell a disappointment, regardless of who he's played for. If he were so terrible, he wouldn't have started and been featured by the Pats. Or Carolina. Or here.
5.  If we go WR in the first 2 rounds, I'm not going to be upset about it. I just don't see WR as a dire need with LaFell and Boyd on board. Could we use more speed? Always. But I think LaFell gets deep about as often as Jones did. Our deep shots seem to always go to Green anyway. Maybe that would change with a Davis or Ross. Maybe not.

(03-27-2017, 12:42 AM)eoxyod Wrote: I never said we should invest a ton of resources into WR unless need be or where the value of the player outweighs the value of the position, which you seem to agree with me on

I should have been more specific. I think Davis will eventually be a good pro WR. It may take him a minute since he played against mostly interior competition.

In no way do I think this particular team should add a WR in the #1st. There are other more pressing concerns at this point. 

(03-26-2017, 08:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: OK...So compare what Lafell did last year stat wise to all of the number 2 wide receivers you just listed. Im sure he compares to them pretty equally if not better.  

Cant compare the 2 after week 10. So before aj went down brandon lafell 387 yards. Marvin jones 661. Thats all that needs said. 

(03-27-2017, 09:21 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Cant compare the 2 after week 10. So before aj went down brandon lafell 387 yards. Marvin jones 661. Thats all that needs said. 

LaFell was new to the system. Marvin Jones was on his 4th year. It takes a little bit of time to get chemistry down with receivers. Plus when Green went down the defense could just plan against LaFell since the only other receivers we had were Boyd and Core. LaFell played very well in the 2nd half of the season especially when he had no time to run his routes because the OL was terrible.

(03-26-2017, 08:02 PM)Housh Wrote: Now theres been plenty of teams that had 2 great WRs.


But if we draft Mike Williams I think we can be one of the only teams EVER to have 2 ELITE WRS at the same time.

Im talkin TO and Jerry Rice type shit

Or marvin harrisson and reggie wayne, etc.

(03-27-2017, 08:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, Manning and Marvin Harrison had nothing to do with that offense.  They would have been helpless without Reggie Wayne.

No not helpless but when u have 2 reciever both averaging close to 80-90 reception per year and over 1000 yards per year each that helps a lot. Can u imagine if our number 2 got 1200 yards along with aj every year?

(03-27-2017, 09:21 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Cant compare the 2 after week 10. So before aj went down brandon lafell 387 yards. Marvin jones 661. Thats all that needs said. 

It is insane to ignore the fact that when LaFell was facing coverage designed for the #1 WR he outproduced Jones facing coverage designed for the #2 WR.

How can that not be used as a factor to argue which is the better WR?

You can't claim it is because LaFell got more targets because they each had almost the identical number of targets for the season.  LaFell-106, Jones-104

I think that between Green, Lafell, Boyd, and Core that we are set at WR for the next couple years.

(03-27-2017, 09:21 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Cant compare the 2 after week 10. So before aj went down brandon lafell 387 yards. Marvin jones 661. Thats all that needs said. 

Lol this is sooo deceptive. "Before AJ went down" would include Jones' best stretch by far. 

Jones in his first 3 games as a Lion: 408 yards
Jones' last 13 games: 522 yards - essentially disappeared

(03-22-2017, 05:46 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Bengals were terrible in the redzone. I think the Bengals need more production all around. RB, and WR.

Green is 28. The hill is coming quickly. The Bengals need another WR to start carrying the load.

You're right, the big issue last year was red zone inefficiency. The Bengals don't have the personnel to get good push in the running game, so a RB might not make much of a difference in that area. A WR with a deep threat aspect would help the offense in terms of getting down the field, but it doesn't really help much in the red zone.

This is why I think the biggest offensive help just might be an(other) elite TE. The Bengals could use another consistent receiving threat at TE, especially if/when Eifert is out due to injury, and there's no guarantee Eifert would be extended anyway. Another well-rounded TE that can both block and be a true receiving threat might do wonders for this offense.

(03-27-2017, 12:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I haven't seen many WR's going in the top 10 of mocks though. Mike Williams is about it, and he's been on the fringe of top 10. 

Charlie Campbell has Corey Davis going 27th, behind Williams and John Ross.
Walter has Davis going 28th, also behind Williams and Ross.
Lance Zierlien (NFL.com) has Davis going 28th, also behind Williams and Ross.

3 other NFL.com writers (Bucky Brooks, Daniel Jeremiah and Chad Reuter) have Davis going 13th, 18th and 5th. I'm just not sure Davis will even be the best WR available at 9th overall, let alone the best player. If WR were by far the BPA, by all means go for it, but from what I've read, this is a deep WR draft.



1.  I would have to know how many DPIs Jones and LaFell have had on a yearly basis. I'm going to guess that such a number wouldn't be consistent either way.
2.  Sounds like excuses, eox. He started hot in Detroit and cooled down (understatement), going for a meager 522 yards in the last 13 games. He lost Stafford's trust with drops and inability to beat press coverage. If he was better in our system, why was he only able to produce 816 yards and 4 TDs in 2015? Or 712 yards and 10 TDs (inflated number) in 2013? The guy put up pretty much the same numbers Jerome Simpson and LaFell managed.
3.  It's still hard to consider LaFell a disappointment, regardless of who he's played for. If he were so terrible, he wouldn't have started and been featured by the Pats. Or Carolina. Or here.
5.  If we go WR in the first 2 rounds, I'm not going to be upset about it. I just don't see WR as a dire need with LaFell and Boyd on board. Could we use more speed? Always. But I think LaFell gets deep about as often as Jones did. Our deep shots seem to always go to Green anyway. Maybe that would change with a Davis or Ross. Maybe not.

I'm gonna summarize the LaFell/Jones thing in saying I don't think LaFell is terrible, and is actually a good #2 receiver. But he is the furthest thing from a long term option, and the draft is about investing in long term resources overall

(03-27-2017, 02:23 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I should have been more specific. I think Davis will eventually be a good pro WR. It may take him a minute since he played against mostly interior competition.

In no way do I think this particular team should add a WR in the #1st. There are other more pressing concerns at this point. 

As I said above, the draft is about long term development. From everything I, and many people I trust in evaluation see in him, he will be an absolutely awesome WR. As in best in the class. I'm down for that and I believe he can provide immediate impact. Going against 'inferior' competition hasn't hurt other players often, and we really don't have significant holes in places that can't be replaced with players on an equal level comparable to later in the draft (in terms of positional value) besides DE, where the best players might be gone

(03-28-2017, 02:43 PM)eoxyod Wrote: I'm gonna summarize the LaFell/Jones thing in saying I don't think LaFell is terrible, and is actually a good #2 receiver. But he is the furthest thing from a long term option, and the draft is about investing in long term resources overall

As I said above, the draft is about long term development. From everything I, and many people I trust in evaluation see in him, he will be an absolutely awesome WR. As in best in the class. I'm down for that and I believe he can provide immediate impact. Going against 'inferior' competition hasn't hurt other players often, and we really don't have significant holes in places that can't be replaced with players on an equal level comparable to later in the draft (in terms of positional value) besides DE, where the best players might be gone

Don't misunderstand, if we were to grab Davis or Ross in the first, I wouldn't be upset. I really like this rumor of trading McCarron and picking up an extra first round pick. If that happens I would be stoked.

We probably miss out on Foster in that scenario cause I think C-LAND will grab him, but that's the draft.

To sum up, I'm not against getting a beast WR early, but pass rusher is still a need. There are some to be had later though. I'm sure you know that as well. You know your stuff.

Also, good point about lesser comp. It didn't bother Mack any!

(03-28-2017, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is insane to ignore the fact that when LaFell was facing coverage designed for the #1 WR he outproduced Jones facing coverage designed for the #2 WR.

How can that not be used as a factor to argue which is the better WR?

You can't claim it is because LaFell got more targets because they each had almost the identical number of targets for the season.  LaFell-106, Jones-104

Lol, you struggle with every post/topic, hu?

106 targets on the season


In his first 9 games with Aj, he had 46 targets for 391 Yards

LaFell had 60 of this Targets in the last 7 games - all without Green -  for 471 yards 


8.5  Yards per target with AJ

7.85 Yards per target without AJ


Lol

I usually try to be very accepting of who the Bengals select in the draft, but I will be greatly disappointed if we use the #9 pick on a WR.

I just can not imagine the Bengals as a team that is suddenly going to start throwing the ball 40 times every game.

Since Marvin took over in 2003 the Bengals are 18th in pass attempts.  In those 14 seasons they only ranked in the top 10 in pass attempts twice and both were losing seasons (8th in '07, 5th in '10).

A great #2 WR is not going to change that very much.

The best reason to draft a WR isn't Lafell's quality...it's that AJ Green is 29 and probably has 3-4 years left at a top level. It would be what the Falcons did with White and Jones.

If the offensive line gives Dalton time, any WR can look good next to AJ Green.

(03-28-2017, 01:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol this is sooo deceptive. "Before AJ went down" would include Jones' best stretch by far. 

Jones in his first 3 games as a Lion: 408 yards
Jones' last 13 games: 522 yards - essentially disappeared

I dont like comparing that foe the reason u stated. But that is the only way u can compare the 2. Also the same could be said for lafells firat half os season he dissappeared. He only showed up when aj went down.

(03-28-2017, 10:53 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I dont like comparing that foe the reason u stated. But that is the only way u can compare the 2. Also the same could be said for lafells firat half os season he dissappeared. He only showed up when aj went down.

You are making this much harder than it needs to be.

Both WRs had almost the exact same number of targets.  Both had about the same amount of production.  But some of LaFell's targets came when he was the #1 WR while all of Jones production came when he was a #2 WR.

Don't throw out any of the games.  Look at the totals for the entore season.

(03-29-2017, 08:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You are making this much harder than it needs to be.

Both WRs had almost the exact same number of targets.  Both had about the same amount of production.  But some of LaFell's targets came when he was the #1 WR while all of Jones production came when he was a #2 WR.

Don't throw out any of the games.  Look at the totals for the entore season.

Brandon Lafell was less efficient When AJ green was not in the lineup.

Fact

(03-29-2017, 10:49 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Brandon Lafell was less efficient When  AJ green was not in the lineup.

Fact

As are all #2WRs when the #1 isn't in the lineup.