(04-03-2017, 03:32 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: So...  the first thing on Rick's mind is to not seek out Negan when he's running for his life?  Uh okay.

Or how about when they are interrogating Dwight?  Being the master tactician Rick is, he's never bothered to find out just how many people Negan has....which, you know, might be kind of important.

(04-03-2017, 03:45 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: How about one minute, while pinned down, Negan mentions "Plan B" and then a cut to Carl and Rick on their knees with Negan and his crew in control?

I was really hoping they were going to kill Carl.  Constantly making us think key players are dead or about to be killed is cheap writing.  Michonne jams pottery into someone's skull, and then after we cut back to her she's suddenly getting her ass kicked again.

"Hey, Rick - you're shot dude!"
"Tis but a mere flesh wound"

Yeah what was Plan B, and why wasn't it Plan A?

Has Rick really ever really done anything right or with at least a little bit of precision?

Michonne even had to kill the Governor for crap's sake.

Why in the world would anyone want to follow Rick?

If it weren't for the Kingdom showing up they'd all be dead meat.

(04-03-2017, 03:32 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: So...  the first thing on Rick's mind is to not seek out Negan when he's running for his life?  Uh okay.

I must say. All of these people with guns and nobody can kill Negan when in view?!?

Watching this show makes me wonder what the hell is going on with the screen writers/directors.

dude WTF they cant kill negan yet hes the only interesting person on the show

For being such a built up finale...that episode sucked. Everything they did just seemed so half assed.

Even the whole plot with Sasha killing herself to turn into a zombie in the coffin. I mean, what are the odds that Rick would have made Neegan open the coffin, Neegan himself actually opening the coffin, and then him getting attacked? The entire thing just seemed dumb to me.

I was telling myself since this season has been so slow and sucked so bad, the finale better be badass. It wasn't.

And I agree about Rick. The guy is a complete spazz. He screws things up constantly and is constantly getting the group into dire situations. No wonder people are hesitant to follow him.

(04-03-2017, 04:12 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah what was Plan B, and why wasn't it Plan A?

Plan B was killing lots of people. It was Plan A until Sasha said "I can do it and no one has to die." Her plan became Plan A; Plan B became killing lots of people.

(04-04-2017, 12:26 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: For being such a built up finale...that episode sucked. Everything they did just seemed so half assed.

Even the whole plot with Sasha killing herself to turn into a zombie in the coffin. I mean, what are the odds that Rick would have made Neegan open the coffin, Neegan himself actually opening the coffin, and then him getting attacked? The entire thing just seemed dumb to me.

I was telling myself since this season has been so slow and sucked so bad, the finale better be badass. It wasn't.

And I agree about Rick. The guy is a complete spazz. He screws things up constantly and is constantly getting the group into dire situations. No wonder people are hesitant to follow him.

It was dumb, but it kinda makes sense. Sasha knew they were going to use her to make Rick and the others complacent.

'Hey, we've got your friend. Don't do anything or she dies.' Then when they lay their weapons down, Negan would've made Rick chose someone to kill. At that point, if Rick refused Negan would have just killed more people.

By killing herself, Sasha knew that took her out of the decision making process. Negan wouldn't have any leverage (of course, she didn't know the Garbage Pail Kids were turning).


But, yeah, wasn't very good. Rick talked big, but came off looking like an impotent idiot. Again. At this point, if I was the Family I'd be asking Maggie to take over. Twice the badass, half the crazy and anyone would make better decisions. If he really wanted to send a message — Negan or no — he should have just shot the Mullet in one knee.

And, yeah, the writing was just dumb. Dwight wants to kill Negan? Then why the hell didn't he shoot him during the fire fight? At least twice he was near Negan, he could have put a few rounds in him. Or when they're leaving and Negan gives them the finger. You've got several automatic weapons. No one can spray a giant truck from 20-40 yards? Last week they're picking off walkers one by one in a wooded area... now they couldn't make a clear shot.

Aaaand the double cross just seems out of character. Rick goes from naive at the start of the show to leery to not trusting anyone. Now he just doles out automatic rifles and invites in a bunch of strangers?

(04-04-2017, 02:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Aaaand the double cross just seems out of character. Rick goes from naive at the start of the show to leery to not trusting anyone. Now he just doles out automatic rifles and invites in a bunch of strangers?

Although it surprised me, Rick should have seen that coming.  They basically told him, multiple times, they are only it in for themselves.  You're going to put that kind of trust in someone who keeps telling you "we take"?

All goes back to his desperation and poor planning.  Rick knew he needed more people, but he still has no idea how many MORE people he needs.  Looked like at the end there that Negan has at least 150-200 soldiers.  And when you consider Rick is trying to arm people who never shot a gun, he needs a lot more focus on tactics (which has never been his strongsuit).


Really needs to be a meme somewhere like:
Redshirt A: What do we do now?
Redshirt B: We wait for Rick to come up with a plan, then we die.

(04-04-2017, 02:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Plan B was killing lots of people. It was Plan A until Sasha said "I can do it and no one has to die." Her plan became Plan A; Plan B became killing lots of people.


It was dumb, but it kinda makes sense. Sasha knew they were going to use her to make Rick and the others complacent.

'Hey, we've got your friend. Don't do anything or she dies.' Then when they lay their weapons down, Negan would've made Rick chose someone to kill. At that point, if Rick refused Negan would have just killed more people.

By killing herself, Sasha knew that took her out of the decision making process. Negan wouldn't have any leverage (of course, she didn't know the Garbage Pail Kids were turning).


But, yeah, wasn't very good. Rick talked big, but came off looking like an impotent idiot. Again. At this point, if I was the Family I'd be asking Maggie to take over. Twice the badass, half the crazy and anyone would make better decisions. If he really wanted to send a message — Negan or no — he should have just shot the Mullet in one knee.

And, yeah, the writing was just dumb. Dwight wants to kill Negan? Then why the hell didn't he shoot him during the fire fight? At least twice he was near Negan, he could have put a few rounds in him. Or when they're leaving and Negan gives them the finger. You've got several automatic weapons. No one can spray a giant truck from 20-40 yards? Last week they're picking off walkers one by one in a wooded area... now they couldn't make a clear shot.

Aaaand the double cross just seems out of character. Rick goes from naive at the start of the show to leery to not trusting anyone. Now he just doles out automatic rifles and invites in a bunch of strangers?

and really how many times has rick said he doesn't want to lead these people anymore...   Heck hes not really wanted to be a leader since the prison  it just keeps getting handed to or forced on him.

at this point in the series Carl has more nuts than rick

***

Dwight himself said you cant just kill Negan (they are all Negan) you gotta take them all out. And hes waiting for his opportunity. He doesn't want to just kill negan he wants to wipe out the saviors and their lifestyle. shooting negan might have accomplished the small goal and end with Dwight being dead and unable to help any longer while someone else takes negans place (maybe someone not as fun to watch or as reasonable)

whats that saying never eliminate a dictator unless you have arrangements with his successor


***

In addition to just the soldiers negan had at his base.. .Remember when marchonne was taking the one savior woman to show her were negan was and they came to that huge field full of saviors? the lady told her she could turn back now and hid the truck or proceed and die.

(04-04-2017, 04:45 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: and really how many times has rick said he doesn't want to lead these people anymore...   Heck hes not really wanted to be a leader since the prison  it just keeps getting handed to or forced on him.

at this point in the series Carl has more nuts than rick

***

Dwight himself said you cant just kill Negan (they are all Negan)   you gotta take them all out.  And hes waiting for his opportunity.    He doesn't want to just kill negan he wants to wipe out the saviors and their lifestyle.   shooting negan might have accomplished the small goal and end with Dwight being dead and unable to help any longer while someone else takes negans place (maybe someone not as fun to watch or as reasonable)

whats that saying never eliminate a dictator unless you have arrangements with his successor

They can babble all they want, but if you take out Negan you take out the saviors.  Next man up doesn't really work. Then again the writers can decide whatever they want.

(04-04-2017, 04:50 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They can babble all they want, but if you take out Negan you take out the saviors.  Next man up doesn't really work.  Then again the writers can decide whatever they want.

you take out negan you take out 1 savior.

Its not a snake

(04-04-2017, 04:50 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They can babble all they want, but if you take out Negan you take out the saviors.  Next man up doesn't really work.  Then again the writers can decide whatever they want.

That's my thinking.

Dwight's de facto Negan #2. Whether they're all Negan or not... there's still a pecking order. Negan, Dwight, Big Mustache Guy, on down to Skinny Joey or whoever. If #2 shoots #1, either: numbers Negan 3-200 fall in behind Dwight OR they get in a power struggle for who is the new #1. Either way, you kill Negan and the dictatorship isn't the same.

(04-04-2017, 04:50 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They can babble all they want, but if you take out Negan you take out the saviors.  Next man up doesn't really work.  Then again the writers can decide whatever they want.

In a post-apocalyptic world where the only order is what you make it, it does work. There's always someone ready to jump up and be the next Negan. 

You have to wipe, at least, most of them out and destroy wherever they stay, to put an end to them. The ones that are left will go off in smaller groups or merge into whoever whooped their ass. 

(04-04-2017, 09:55 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: dude WTF they cant kill negan yet hes the only interesting person on the show

I didn't say I wanted him dead.  He is the most interesting person on the show right now.

I'm just saying if a character wants to kill the shit out of someone...  well, they would follow that person with a lot more drive.

Not just kind of meander around and let him sneak off. 

That and a large group of people with weapons would be seeking out the guy who was endlessly tormenting them.

I know it's a fictional story.  Yet plausibility is important if you want to keep the viewer engaged.

For that matter, Negan could have easily killed Rick and put and end to this current struggle...  but in some sick way he enjoys the challenge brought by him.

I get that.  It fits his character to a T.

It all comes down to dragging the material out.  No matter how we rationalize it.  It's just kind of dumb though IMO.

(04-04-2017, 08:24 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: For that matter, Negan could have easily killed Rick and put and end to this current struggle...  but in some sick way he enjoys the challenge brought by him.

I think if someone was really a challenge to him (we all agree Rick is not), he'd eliminate him.

But Negan's "model" relies on these slave communities "getting shit done", and for that he wants them to have a decent leader.  Rick is too incompetent to overthrow Negan, but competent enough to go take a stash of guns from a bunch of women - that's the type of person Negan wants in charge.

If Negan were smart, when he got back to his base he should have immediately gathered every troop he has, gone straight to Alexandria, and just CRUSHED them all. I mean seriously, there are like 20 of them at Alexandria compared to Negans 200 person army.

(04-05-2017, 12:42 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If Negan were smart, when he got back to his base he should have immediately gathered every troop he has, gone straight to Alexandria, and just CRUSHED them all. I mean seriously, there are like 20 of them at Alexandria compared to Negans 200 person army.

They would have already crushed them if the Kingdom and Hilltop had not shown up

he knows its not just a fight against one community

(04-05-2017, 01:38 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: They would have already crushed them if the Kingdom and Hilltop had not shown up

he knows its not just a fight against one community

Well, if you're going to wipe out the people that pay you tribute, then you're going to want to lose a few soldiers along the way. But if the Kingdom and Hilltop hadn't shown up, Negan was just going to kill Carl and then leave everyone else to keep working for him.

That's the fine line Negan tries to navigate - he needs compliant communities, but he needs them to gather and produce to feed and stock his army.

I wonder if the garbage people really think he'll honor his deal. Sure, I'll give you 10 worthless people....and then come and demand you start paying the tax.

(04-05-2017, 02:12 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote:  

I wonder if the garbage people really think he'll honor his deal.  Sure, I'll give you 10 worthless people....and then come and demand you start paying the tax.

Maybe I missed it, but did they say what they wanted the 10 people for?

Lunch? Slave labor?

(04-05-2017, 02:12 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Well, if you're going to wipe out the people that pay you tribute, then you're going to want to lose a few soldiers along the way.  But if the Kingdom and Hilltop hadn't shown up, Negan was just going to kill Carl and then leave everyone else to keep working for him.

That's the fine line Negan tries to navigate - he needs compliant communities, but he needs them to gather and produce to feed and stock his army.

I wonder if the garbage people really think he'll honor his deal.  Sure, I'll give you 10 worthless people....and then come and demand you start paying the tax.

She wanted 12 negan talked her down to 10...  (I believe 12 was the original deal had the plan gone right.. but with the sasha thing and carl opening fire negan lost some resources so he talked her down to 10)

12 or 10 what I didn't catch on the show.

I doubt negan is giving her 10 people as they(garbage crew) have enough mouths to feed.    probly some sort of units of food if I were to guess..  (or maybe 10 weeks before he comes to collect)

(04-05-2017, 01:38 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: They would have already crushed them if the Kingdom and Hilltop had not shown up

he knows its not just a fight against one community

Kingdome and Hiltop weren't at Alexandria when Negan was there. Well, they were, but only like 10 of them. 

Thats why im saying you immediately gather the troops and head straight back there so you can just destroy them with your numbers before Rick has time to gather his.