We would have Geno Atkins and Jonathan Allen pushing the pocket right into the face of opposing QBs making them less able to step forward with their throws in the pocket.
Pressure up the middle from Atkins and Allen..

Carlos Dunlap and Jordan Willis could pressure from both sides and we would have plenty of decent depth players to rotate in. Would also be able to handle injuries better through long seasons.

The D-line would soon garnish plenty of Media attention and likely become a Top 3 in the NFL D-line overnight.
Maybe even the Best.

Allen is a 3 technique meaning he and Geno won't see the field together unless they are in together on passing downs. We may eventually kick Allen outside on early downs, but that probably wouldn't be next year. I like Willis, but I am not so much a fan of doubling up on D line in the first two rounds.

(04-14-2017, 10:57 AM)Au165 Wrote: Allen is a 3 technique meaning he and Geno won't see the field together unless they are in together on passing downs. We may eventually kick Allen outside on early downs, but that probably wouldn't be next year. I like Willis, but I am not so much a fan of doubling up on D line in the first two rounds.

I don't Pigeon Hole a player of Jonathan Allen's versatility into a specific technique.
I think he can be lined up anywhere at anytime on the D-line and be a dominant Football player.
The Doubling Down has a Purpose and that is to elevate a Unit of the team to Greatness.
Make an investment and do something outside the Norm in an effort to attain an Edge on 31 other teams in at least one area.

In this example, the D-line.

I have my doubts that the Bengals invest a high pick on a DT. We have Jonathan Billings, who is the likely frontrunner to take the starting role vacated by the waived Domata Peko. We also have Marcus Hardison, who was taken in the 4th round of the 2015 draft. Hardison is also expected to compete for the starting position. There was a recent fluff piece written, singing the praises of both of them.

(04-14-2017, 11:19 AM)depthchart Wrote: I don't Pigeon Hole a player of Jonathan Allen's versatility into a specific technique.
I think he can be lined up anywhere at anytime on the D-line and be a dominant Football player.
The Doubling Down has a Purpose and that is to elevate a Unit of the team to Greatness.
Make an investment and do something outside the Norm in an effort to attain an Edge on 31 other teams in at least one area.

In this example, the D-line.

He isn't playing NT at 285 and we aren't going to put more weight on him if we want him to play outside and use his versatility. It's not pigeon holing it is the reality of schemes. He is a 3 technique or a 5 technique that's just the way it is.

(04-14-2017, 11:23 AM)Au165 Wrote: He isn't playing NT at 285 and we aren't going to put more weight on him if we want him to play outside and use his versatility. It's not pigeon holing it is the reality of schemes. He is a 3 technique or a 5 technique that's just the way it is.

Not disagreeing but according to your logic Derek Barnett lack of length  (not height which people easily confuse) makes him a 3-4 outside linebacker.

(04-14-2017, 11:28 AM)Synric Wrote: Not disagreeing but according to your logic Derek Barnett lack of length  (not height which people easily confuse) makes him a 3-4 outside linebacker.

Not really at all, he is basically the exact same size (including arm length) as Oliver Vernon and Everson Griffin. Simply put, he isn't our prototypical end but is perfectly normal size for many 4-3 ends around the league. On the other hand Allen at 285 playing 4-3 NT would make him the smallest NT in the league. It also would be a colossal waste of a pick as the NT in a 4-3 is one of the least important positions on the field. NT aren't supposed to rush the passer as much as they are supposed to push the pocket and eat up blockers for the ends and 3 technique. Allen's strength is rushing, so to use his value would be at the 3 or 5 technique.

Allen and Barnette could both easily play our RDE spot. Allen played that spot in college and did amazing job. And on pass rushing downs he moved inside like he would here. Barnette would play our RDE spot and do a better job then MJ right off the bat. On passing downs he would stay on the right side obviously

(04-14-2017, 11:46 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not really at all, he is basically the exact same size (including arm length) as Oliver Vernon and Everson Griffin. Simply put, he isn't our prototypical end but is perfectly normal size for many 4-3 ends around the league. On the other hand Allen at 285 playing 4-3 NT would make him the smallest NT in the league. It also would be a colossal waste of a pick as the NT in a 4-3 is one of the least important positions on the field. NT aren't supposed to rush the passer as much as they are supposed to push the pocket and eat up blockers for the ends and 3 technique. Allen's strength is rushing, so to use his value would be at the 3 or 5 technique.

I can see how I worded my initial Post made it seem like I was plugging Jonathan Allen in as a Defensive Tackle to be paired with Geno as a Defensive Tackle all the time, on every play and every situation.
That was not my intent.
The overall purpose of getting Allen and Willis is to upgrade the talent on the D-line and be able to rotate players in and out to keep players fresh. To create a Great Unit.

Jonathan Allen weighs 286 pounds coming out of College at age 22. He will be a 300 to 305 pounder in no time as he matures and gets with NFL strength programs. I don't suggest having him at Nose DT every down and in all situations but he is Butt strong enough to do it from time to time with the Athleticism to penetrate even in these situations. I would want to use his versatility in situational rotations that gives all our D-lineman some plays to rest during games.
A Fresh, deep bad news Unit and Jonathan Allen's versatility could help it remain a tough Unit even when certain players get injured. His role would be more Flexible than I first implied.
Our D-line becomes Exceptional. We start to have something that separates us from the Wildcard hopeful Pack.

(04-14-2017, 12:35 PM)depthchart Wrote: I can see how I worded my initial Post made it seem like I was plugging Jonathan Allen in as a Defensive Tackle to be paired with Geno as a Defensive Tackle all the time, on every play and every situation.
That was not my intent.
The overall purpose of getting Allen and Willis is to upgrade the talent on the D-line and be able to rotate players in and out to keep players fresh. To create a Great Unit.

Jonathan Allen weighs 286 pounds coming out of College at age 22. He will be a 300 to 305 pounder in no time as he matures and gets with NFL strength programs. I don't suggest having him at Nose DT every down and in all situations but he is Butt strong enough to do it from time to time with the Athleticism to penetrate even in these situations. I would want to use his versatility in situational rotations that gives all our D-lineman some plays to rest during games.
A Fresh, deep bad news Unit and Jonathan Allen's versatility could help it remain a tough Unit even when certain players get injured. His role would be more Flexible than I first implied.
Our D-line becomes Exceptional. We start to have something that separates us from the Wildcard hopeful Pack.

If you move Allen up to 300-305 you have now completely killed everything that makes him a top 10 pick.

Want a better defensive line? Get a better free safety.

(04-14-2017, 12:41 PM)Au165 Wrote: If you move Allen up to 300-305 you have now completely killed everything that makes him a top 10 pick.

You are only talking about 14 to 19 pounds on a man his size.
He will Naturally move up in weight. He is only 22 years old.

I'm not a fan of Willis at all. I've watched some more tape of the guy recently . Don't like his game at all. He appears to have a lack of instincts. Doesn't seem to have many moves either. Looks stiff out there . The more I watched him the more I hated his game tape. Looks the part but deosnt play it.

(04-14-2017, 10:55 AM)depthchart Wrote: We would have Geno Atkins and Jonathan Allen pushing the pocket right into the face of opposing QBs making them less able to step forward with their throws in the pocket.
Pressure up the middle from Atkins and Allen..

Carlos Dunlap and Jordan Willis could pressure from both sides and we would have plenty of decent depth players to rotate in. Would also be able to handle injuries better through long seasons.

The D-line would soon garnish plenty of Media attention and likely become a Top 3 in the NFL D-line overnight.
Maybe even the Best.

Probably better off with offensive playmaker in Round 1, Jordan Willis in Round 2, and DeMarcus Walker in Round 3, eh?
Walker might be a bit better fit in the Gilberry role than Allen due to size and actually has better production in college (Walker has 25.0 sacks and 33.5 TFL in 2 years vs Allen's 22.5 sacks and 30.5 TFL in 2 years).

Walker would be a base DE that would swing inside next to Geno and then have Dunlap and Wiillis rushing from the outside on passing downs.

(04-14-2017, 01:14 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: I'm not a fan of Willis at all.    I've watched some more tape of the guy recently    .  Don't like his game at all.   He appears to have a lack of instincts.    Doesn't seem to have many moves either.  Looks stiff out there .    The more I watched him the more I hated his game tape.   Looks the part but deosnt play it.

I'm ok with choosing a different DE than Willis in round 2 or 3 if there is a better option.

I am going more for the "Concept" of making our D-line Elite.
Invest in a "Concept" rather than the usual we need this so we take it and a hole here so we fill it approach.
More outside the Box thinking of Doubling Down to make a Unit Great.
The Bengals have stayed inside the Box for years with less than Stellar results.

As AU mentioned, Allen is 286lbs. He's not playing DT for the Bengals. He'll probably be a 3-4 DE or something.

His lack of speed and strength are awfully concerning for a guy who's going to go in the top-10. Ran a 5.00, benched 21 times.

For comparison, Atkins ran 4.75 and benched 34 times.

(04-14-2017, 01:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Probably better off with offensive playmaker in Round 1, Jordan Willis in Round 2, and DeMarcus Walker in Round 3, eh?
Walker might be a bit better fit in the Gilberry role than Allen due to size and actually has better production in college (Walker has 25.0 sacks and 33.5 TFL in 2 years vs Allen's 22.5 sacks and 30.5 TFL in 2 years).

Walker would be a base DE that would swing inside next to Geno and then have Dunlap and Wiillis rushing from the outside on passing downs.

Not a bad idea.
I'm into ideas and am not yet sold on one as evidenced by my OJ Howard, Malik Hooker and Jonathan Allen recent threads.
I like to kick all the ideas around including some that very few people may be thinking. (maybe not thinking them for good reason).

Goal is to find a way to DOMINATE in some area.
It may take some Overkill to make it happen like doubling down on 2 D-lineman early for example.

(04-14-2017, 01:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: As AU mentioned, Allen is 286lbs. He's not playing DT for the Bengals. He'll probably be a 3-4 DE or something.

His lack of speed and strength are awfully concerning for a guy who's going to go in the top-10. Ran a 5.00, benched 21 times.

For comparison, Atkins ran 4.75 and benched 34 times.

He is only 22 years old, been training for Combine drills for weeks and will be 300 to 305 pounds as he matures.
What makes him a Top pick is his Versatility which is what I would want to maximize.
DT at times DE at times and the D-line Group gets deeper for rotational purposes to keep guys fresh.

(04-14-2017, 10:55 AM)depthchart Wrote: We would have Geno Atkins and Jonathan Allen pushing the pocket right into the face of opposing QBs making them less able to step forward with their throws in the pocket.
Pressure up the middle from Atkins and Allen..

Carlos Dunlap and Jordan Willis could pressure from both sides and we would have plenty of decent depth players to rotate in. Would also be able to handle injuries better through long seasons.

The D-line would soon garnish plenty of Media attention and likely become a Top 3 in the NFL D-line overnight.
Maybe even the Best.

Would love this on passing downs, plus both of these guys can stop the run well if asked to do so.

Like Au165 said, Allen is more of a 3 tech like Geno and would mostly be used when Geno needs a rest. But he can play End
too, so it would be a great pick for us if Allen is there. Been really pushing for Willis in the 2nd round. Dude can do it all, rush
the passer, stop the run and be disruptive. Just what we need opposite Dunlap.

(04-14-2017, 10:57 AM)Au165 Wrote: Allen is a 3 technique meaning he and Geno won't see the field together unless they are in together on passing downs. We may eventually kick Allen outside on early downs, but that probably wouldn't be next year. I like Willis, but I am not so much a fan of doubling up on D line in the first two rounds.

 The majority of downs in today's NFL are passing downs. So they would be on the field a bunch. Also we give Geno a bunch of rest during the games so Allen would get plenty of playing time as his backup as well.