(04-14-2017, 08:32 AM)McC Wrote: And he's recovered from all of them.  You just have too much man love for big, slow Mike.

Do you call them "Slow Dez", "Slow Keenan Allen", "Slow Anquan", "Slow Larry", "Slow Kelvin", Slow Chris Carter", "Slow Chad Johnson"? People are so obsessed with 40 times and the reality is all these guys listed had same or slower 40 times than Williams, some much slower.

Speed is relative, but not required to be effective as all the guys above have proven. Williams, Davis, and Ross could all be really good pros but accomplishing it in very different ways.

(04-13-2017, 12:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: Fuller was pick 21, again don't hate Ross but not at 9. Being Fast doesn't make you a top 10 pick, that is what Al Davis sued to think though and so the world got Derrious Heyward Bay (I know Ross isn't the same, my point is speed is not the end all).

but ross has hands....   DHB had 2 clubs at the end of his wrist

(04-14-2017, 10:26 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: but ross has hands....   DHB had 2 clubs at the end of his wrist

I agree, my point is many people point to his speed as the first thing they talk about, understandable to a point, but it is kind of becoming the reason for many. I get that he is fast, but speed in football is just not that big a deal for WR's. He is a good player beyond the speed, but people are trying to push him into the top 10 on his speed, I just don't see it.

(04-14-2017, 10:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: I agree, my point is many people point to his speed as the first thing they talk about, understandable to a point, but it is kind of becoming the reason for many. I get that he is fast, but speed in football is just not that big a deal for WR's. He is a good player beyond the speed, but people are trying to push him into the top 10 on his speed, I just don't see it.

It will all depend on whos available @ 9  I think there will be higher value available. But  we will see.

(04-14-2017, 10:57 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: It will all depend on whos available @ 9  I think there will be higher value available. But  we will see.

I agree the draft never goes as expected. I think the linchpin in the entire draft are the QBs, either through who takes them or who trades to get in a position to. That can literally reshape the entire draft in minutes. I honestly believe only two WR's go round 1. I think we see pass rushers push the WR's down the draft.

(04-14-2017, 10:22 AM)Au165 Wrote: Do you call them "Slow Dez", "Slow Keenan Allen", "Slow Anquan", "Slow Larry", "Slow Kelvin", Slow Chris Carter", "Slow Chad Johnson"? People are so obsessed with 40 times and the reality is all these guys listed had same or slower 40 times than Williams, some much slower.

Speed is relative, but not required to be effective as all the guys above have proven. Williams, Davis, and Ross could all be really good pros but accomplishing it in very different ways.

You're right, it's not all about speed. It's all about separation. You can get separation from elite speed, high pointing the ball with a high vert, crisp route running, excellent footwork, physicality at the LOS, etc.
If Mike Williams is going to succeed in the NFL, he's going to do it by high pointing the ball and using his big frame. He's not a crisp route runner, he doesn't have excellent footwork to juke people, and he doesn't have elite speed to gain separation vertically.
John Ross is going to win with elite speed and elite footwork. He is also elite after the catch. He won't have as easy of a time winning vertically (even though he has a great vert jump), and he doesn't have the size to box out defenders.
Corey Davis is kind of in the middle. He will win with excellent route running. Davis also is elite after the catch.

So the debate really is more of what type of WR will offer the most to the Bengals. I personally think that this team has big targets already and a WR with elite footwork (like Chad Johnson) and elite speed will offer the most to this offense vs the other two.

Finally, people need to quit treating John Ross's medicals like they are so terrible. Williams and Davis both also have medical concerns. Williams suffered a terrible neck injury in 2015. Corey Davis is currently recovering from ankle surgery. John Ross and Mike Williams proved they have recovered from their significant injuries by having very good 2016 seasons in college. If you're worried about John Ross's legs, you should be worried about Williams's neck and Davis's ankle. If you're not concerned with William's neck and Davis's ankle, you shouldn't be worried about Ross's legs.

(04-14-2017, 11:09 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You're right, it's not all about speed. It's all about separation. You can get separation from elite speed, high pointing the ball with a high vert, crisp route running, excellent footwork, physicality at the LOS, etc.
If Mike Williams is going to succeed in the NFL, he's going to do it by high pointing the ball and using his big frame. He's not a crisp route runner, he doesn't have excellent footwork to juke people, and he doesn't have elite speed to gain separation vertically.
John Ross is going to win with elite speed and elite footwork. He is also elite after the catch. He won't have as easy of a time winning vertically (even though he has a great vert jump), and he doesn't have the size to box out defenders.
Corey Davis is kind of in the middle. He will win with excellent route running. Davis also is elite after the catch.

So the debate really is more of what type of WR will offer the most to the Bengals. I personally think that this team has big targets already and a WR with elite footwork (like Chad Johnson) and elite speed will offer the most to this offense vs the other two.

Finally, people need to quit treating John Ross's medicals like they are so terrible. Williams and Davis both also have medical concerns. Williams suffered a terrible neck injury in 2015. Corey Davis is currently recovering from ankle surgery. John Ross and Mike Williams proved they have recovered from their significant injuries by having very good 2016 seasons in college.  If you're worried about John Ross's legs, you should be worried about Williams's neck and Davis's ankle. If you're not concerned with William's neck and Davis's ankle, you shouldn't be worried about Ross's legs.

I agree, these three guys are actually pretty representative of the three different kind of WRs you have in football as a whole. It really comes down to what flavor of ice cream you like. It's all ice cream so it's good, just a matter of preference.

(04-14-2017, 11:09 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Finally, people need to quit treating John Ross's medicals like they are so terrible. Williams and Davis both also have medical concerns. Williams suffered a terrible neck injury in 2015. Corey Davis is currently recovering from ankle surgery. John Ross and Mike Williams proved they have recovered from their significant injuries by having very good 2016 seasons in college.  If you're worried about John Ross's legs, you should be worried about Williams's neck and Davis's ankle. If you're not concerned with William's neck and Davis's ankle, you shouldn't be worried about Ross's legs.

People worry about injuries with players they don't like.
People ignore injuries with players they do like.

(04-14-2017, 09:16 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You can't predict things like that. Eifert wasn't a big injury case prior to getting drafted. It just happened once he got into the NFL.

If John Ross's medicals check out right now, he's the best playmaker at WR in this draft. Period.
Don't avoid him because you fear he won't play for 10 years. If you keep fearing the worst, you'll never progress.

But thats the thing. They can never get a 100 percent clear medical dur to the microfracture surgery.

(04-14-2017, 09:19 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What is more scared than scared shitless? Because Mike Williams' broken neck must scare you that much.

Thats 1 injury not 5. Also not torn acls. Thats also not a "ticking time bomb" injury like microfracture surgery.

(04-14-2017, 04:33 PM)Jpoore Wrote: But thats the thing. They can never get a 100 percent clear medical dur to the microfracture surgery.

Thats 1 injury not 5. Also not torn acls. Thats also not a "ticking time bomb" injury like microfracture surgery.

This.

It's great that he's recovered but the guy cant stay healthy and has had so many injuries before playing a down in the NFL. You don't take a guy who is so injury prone at number 9. We've seen what happens when Eifert or Green are hurt.

The guy gets hurt browsing the internet, no thanks at 9.

(04-14-2017, 04:33 PM)Jpoore Wrote: But thats the thing. They can never get a 100 percent clear medical dur to the microfracture surgery.

Thats 1 injury not 5. Also not torn acls. Thats also not a "ticking time bomb" injury like microfracture surgery.

So torn ACLs in which the player had surgery on over a year ago and proven to play on for over a year are worrisome but a broken neck a year ago is not worrisome?

Why do you say that you can "never" get a 100% clear medical due to microfracture surgery? Where is the proof in that?
And why do you keep saying "ticking time bomb" as if someone is guaranteed to have a big issue with their knee at some point after microfracture surgery? There's no guarantee that microfracture surgery will "explode" as you keep insisting.

For the record, Vontaze Burfict had microfracture surgery two years ago and he's been fine.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000463388/article/bengals-vontaze-burfict-had-microfracture-surgery

Dr. Neal ElAttrache, a member of the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic Board of Directors Wrote:"I don't see any reason, if this thing heals like we want and we think it will, why he won't be back like he was," said Dr. Neal ElAttrache, a member of the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic Board of Directors, over the phone. "Microfracture has a bad connotation, but there are plenty of guys who have come back and been able to play like before. But it's not really news when it works out."

And before you comment on how it was mentioned in the article of how he had knee surgery in late October 2014 and was having problems still, that was prior to the microfracture surgery, which came after he went on IR.

The biggest worry of microfracture surgery is not giving sufficient time to heal from the procedure. That's why those procedures are typically done right at the start of the offseason or even during the season if the player is on IR. The recovery is needed to be quite a few months. But as long as sufficient time is given for full recovery, this notion that it's a "ticking time bomb" is a fallacy.

(04-14-2017, 05:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: So torn ACLs in which the player had surgery on over a year ago and proven to play on for over a year are worrisome but a broken neck a year ago is not worrisome?

Why do you say that you can "never" get a 100% clear medical due to microfracture surgery? Where is the proof in that?
And why do you keep saying "ticking time bomb" as if someone is guaranteed to have a big issue with their knee at some point after microfracture surgery? There's no guarantee that microfracture surgery will "explode" as you keep insisting.

For the record, Vontaze Burfict had microfracture surgery two years ago and he's been fine.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000463388/article/bengals-vontaze-burfict-had-microfracture-surgery


And before you comment on how it was mentioned in the article of how he had knee surgery in late October 2014 and was having problems still, that was prior to the microfracture surgery, which came after he went on IR.

The biggest worry of microfracture surgery is not giving sufficient time to heal from the procedure. That's why those procedures are typically done right at the start of the offseason or even during the season if the player is on IR. The recovery is needed to be quite a few months. But as long as sufficient time is given for full recovery, this notion that it's a "ticking time bomb" is a fallacy.

I know burfict had microfracture surgery and it has worked so far for him. No the torn acls are not a problem. jake butt is my favorite tight end in the draft. but when uve had all those surgeries already before playing a down in the nfl, and now youll be getting him by the cam chancellors of the world. The microfracture surgery is the problem. First off no 2 microfracture surgeries are the ssme. And it is regarded as sonething that will give out again, u just dont know when. Heres a quote from an article from 2 years ago about the surgery and if it lasts.

The researchers looked at 110 patients who had knee microfracture surgery and followed them for an average of 12 years after the procedure. Over 1/3 of the patients needed additional knee surgeries and almost half had a poor outcome from microfracture. Perhaps the author’s own conclusion sums up best what they found: “a normal knee function was generally not achieved, and many patients had further surgery. The results call for more research and, at present, caution in recommending microfracture in articular cartilage defects, especially in subgroups with worse prognosis.” Who had a worse prognosis? Anyone with any type of arthritis or meniscus tear. 

(04-14-2017, 10:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: I agree, my point is many people point to his speed as the first thing they talk about, understandable to a point, but it is kind of becoming the reason for many. I get that he is fast, but speed in football is just not that big a deal for WR's. He is a good player beyond the speed, but people are trying to push him into the top 10 on his speed, I just don't see it.

But his speed is holy shit speed.  And his abilities allow him to use that speed to be a complete player.  If he was just speed, I would agree with you.   But he's fast and quick and smooth.  You can't stop all those qualities.  I can't think of a more dangerous type player across from AJ.  The missing piece.

(04-14-2017, 01:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: People worry about injuries with players they don't like.
People ignore injuries with players they do like.

This is it exactly.

(04-13-2017, 10:37 AM)Au165 Wrote: We are bringing him for a visit this weekend according to Rappaport. I am not a fan of him, but in the spirit of fairness I thought I'd bring it up. I had also mentioned to MCC they don't draft small WR's as Hobson reiterated again this week, but it appears they are at least considering it. I hope this is for a possible trade up back into the late 1st and not at 9.

Ross would be an ideal pick at #12-15 for the Bengals if they could acquire an additional 2nd rounder for sliding.

Anyone that knocks his size is doubting his athleticism and physicality.  They must not realize that when he was a Sophomore, he moved back to defense (CB) after having 17 receptions for 350 yards and 4 TDs, because idiot teammate Marcus Peters was suspended.  That's right, he started his college career as a DB.  

He also loves the game, and wants to be a coach someday.  I know a lot of people will say "duh, they all love the game" but that just isn't true.  Ross is a true team-first guy, that despite his extraordinary playmaking abilities agreed to go back to defense to help his team.  He averaged a TD nearly every 5 times he touched the ball.  

If you watch the attached video link, he had to slow down on numerous occasions to wait for the ball (keep it quiet, Dalton haters, he would be able to get the ball deep to him) and the few times it was just a hair long, he would speed up effortlessly, leave his defender behind, and make the catch.  He has very solid hands (doesn't double catch it), amazing tracking ability, and is the fastest man to likely ever step on an NFL field.  

Heck, I would take him at #9 if no one wanted to offer us enough to slide.  I will get the DE in the 2nd round.  A player like Ross comes around once in a great while.  I want him.  

I think it was Adoree Jackson that Ross fakes out of his jock at around the 1:40 mark.  Apologies for the music, not my choice.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_somImEyhk

(04-13-2017, 10:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm hoping for defensive help in the first. But, Ross is similar in stature to DeSean Jackson who worked out a little better than a bigger Jerome Simpson.

Ross is actually an inch taller than Jackson and had about 10 more lbs on his frame at the same age.  

(04-14-2017, 10:22 AM)Au165 Wrote: Do you call them "Slow Dez", "Slow Keenan Allen", "Slow Anquan", "Slow Larry", "Slow Kelvin", Slow Chris Carter", "Slow Chad Johnson"? People are so obsessed with 40 times and the reality is all these guys listed had same or slower 40 times than Williams, some much slower.

Speed is relative, but not required to be effective as all the guys above have proven. Williams, Davis, and Ross could all be really good pros but accomplishing it in very different ways.

I know it's just me but I wouldn't touch a WR named Mike Williams with a ten foot pole.  Plus,  he seems to be falling, absolutely out of the top ten.  And he doesn't give us anything we don't have.

(04-13-2017, 12:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: Fuller was pick 21, again don't hate Ross but not at 9. Being Fast doesn't make you a top 10 pick, that is what Al Davis sued to think though and so the world got Derrious Heyward Bay (I know Ross isn't the same, my point is speed is not the end all).

Neither of those guys did what Ross did in college

(04-14-2017, 07:43 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ross would be an ideal pick at #12-15 for the Bengals if they could acquire an additional 2nd rounder for sliding.

Anyone that knocks his size is doubting his athleticism and physicality.  They must not realize that when he was a Sophomore, he moved back to defense (CB) after having 17 receptions for 350 yards and 4 TDs, because idiot teammate Marcus Peters was suspended.  That's right, he started his college career as a DB.  

He also loves the game, and wants to be a coach someday.  I know a lot of people will say "duh, they all love the game" but that just isn't true.  Ross is a true team-first guy, that despite his extraordinary playmaking abilities agreed to go back to defense to help his team.  He averaged a TD nearly every 5 times he touched the ball.  

If you watch the attached video link, he had to slow down on numerous occasions to wait for the ball (keep it quiet, Dalton haters, he would be able to get the ball deep to him) and the few times it was just a hair long, he would speed up effortlessly, leave his defender behind, and make the catch.  He has very solid hands (doesn't double catch it), amazing tracking ability, and is the fastest man to likely ever step on an NFL field.  

Heck, I would take him at #9 if no one wanted to offer us enough to slide.  I will get the DE in the 2nd round.  A player like Ross comes around once in a great while.  I want him.  

I think it was Adoree Jackson that Ross fakes out of his jock at around the 1:40 mark.  Apologies for the music, not my choice.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_somImEyhk

The way I look at it is, if you'd take him at 12 or 15, take him at 9 and I've heard a lot of talking heads say the same thing.  If you can do the trade, do it but if not, take him anyway.

(04-13-2017, 12:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: Which is why I worry, Colorado were drops and some bad effort on a couple balls. Alabama was getting manhandled by good, not great, press corners. Back end of the 1st I'd take him, top 10 I would not. Some people accuse me of "hating on him" because of that, but I think he has value but not top 10 value. I don't value straight line 40 speed as much as many because that isn't football speed.

 You guys saying he is DeSean Jackson, who went in the 2nd, so Ross should go in the 2nd are insane.  If that draft were "re-drafted" Jackson is a first rounder, easily.