I wonder if the Bengals will play Vigil over Vinnie Rey. I hope they do...but I'm skeptical.

I'm content with the LBs

(04-24-2017, 02:59 PM)Joelist Wrote: We have a completely different look at LB this year.

Vigil and Minter are way faster than the players they replaced, and are both good in coverage as is Burflict. So unlike prior seasons we actually can cover Tight Ends and Backs now.

And you know this from watching vigil play against who exactly?

(04-24-2017, 07:30 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: And you know this from watching vigil play against who exactly?

Vigil is faster and quicker than Maualuga and Dansby. Minter is as well.

Why would this even be a question for you?

No...

Pass rush was bad last year...Run defense was worse. The Bengals linebackers put themselves in running lanes but was unable to make a plays on ball carriers. Minter is known for the exact same problems as Rey Mauluga gets in the lane but misses the tackle.

(04-24-2017, 07:55 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Vigil is faster and quicker than Maualuga and Dansby. Minter is as well.

Why would this even be a question for you?

Ehhhh... Dansby ran a 4.56, Vigil ran a 4.72, and Kevin Minter ran 4.81

Even if you account for Dansby being old, I think Vigil vs Dansby is a lot closer than you think. (Of course with Maualuga way behind both.) Don't buy into Minter being some speed demon just because Hobson wrote he brings speed to the LB group.

(04-24-2017, 08:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Ehhhh... Dansby ran a 4.56, Vigil ran a 4.72, and  Kevin Minter ran 4.81

Even if you account for Dansby being old, I think Vigil vs Dansby is a lot closer than you think. (Of course with Maualuga way behind both.) Don't buy into Minter being some speed demon just because Hobson wrote he brings speed to the LB group.

No way, no how is Dansby a quicker, faster player than Vigil today, in 2017 unless we take into consideration experience. Play fast vs. timed fast. Then MAYBE. However, Lapham said Vigil looked like a vet at mini camps and was the most impressive rookie. I think he catches up quick in the experience column.

In terms of raw speed/quickness, there's more to that than just a 40 time, right? What's missing from your assessment/numbers is that Vigil was the FASTEST LB at his combine in BOTH the 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle. He's a fast/quick player and those numbers translate to coverage or a WR/TE more than a 40. LBs tend to not run a straight 40 yards very often unless they are playing ST.

Here's a link to his combine profile and numbers: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/nick-vigil?id=2555528

Minter is more of the traditional, thumping MLB. I could see Vigil or Rey being on the field more than Minter later in the season. Minter plays fast. I would still have to guess he is faster than Dansby at this point in their careers.

I am very content, especially by comparison. Right after CB (there I would be pissed), I would be very unhappy if we took a LB with #9.

(04-24-2017, 08:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Ehhhh... Dansby ran a 4.56, Vigil ran a 4.72, and  Kevin Minter ran 4.81

Even if you account for Dansby being old, I think Vigil vs Dansby is a lot closer than you think. (Of course with Maualuga way behind both.) Don't buy into Minter being some speed demon just because Hobson wrote he brings speed to the LB group.

Wow. Great point on Vigil. I just read his draft profile and I thought he was faster.

He also needs to add strength.

Maualuga ran a 4.91 40.

(04-24-2017, 10:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Wow. Great point on Vigil. I just read his draft profile and I thought he was faster.

He also needs to add strength.

Maualuga ran a 4.91 40.

It was an incomplete point.

See my post #47 in respinse to his.

Vigil had the by far (like, blew them away) fastest 3 cone and fastest 20 yard shuttle out of all LBs at his combine.

LBs rarely run a straight 40 yards unless it's on special teams. A 40 yard dash is one thing to consider, as are the cone and 20 yard shuttles.

(04-24-2017, 11:27 PM)PDub80 Wrote: It was an incomplete point.

See my post #47 in respinse to his.

Vigil had the by far (like, blew them away) fastest 3 cone and fastest 20 yard shuttle out of all LBs at his combine.

LBs rarely run a straight 40 yards unless it's on special teams. A 40 yard dash is one thing to consider, as are the cone and 20 yard shuttles.

20 yard is more quickness than speed. Vigil may be quick, but he is not fast. Much like Giovani Bernard in that aspect. He was really good at the shuttles, but ran a 4.53. We see that when he is shifty with a burst, but then later gets caught from behind.

As we saw with Maualuga in that playoff game where they just did crossing route after crossing route, LBs still need straight line speed. Vigil will never be Maualuga slow (unless he has a leg or two amputated), but straight away speed is still used quite a bit.

A football field is 160ft wide. That's 53.3 yards. Say they're playing 10 yards off the LOS. How far do you think they need to run to catch a RB who goes wide outside? They run 40 yards straight a lot more than you think.

Really?

Yes we did see Vigil on a couple of plays and he looked decent in coverage. And he was good in coverage in college too. Maualuga was always a liability in coverage. And yes Minter has better speed and is better in coverage than what he replaces - for once we actually signed a free agent who is not close to retirement.

So hard as it is for some to believe, we actually have a solid starting LB group that is not cold meat for TEs and backs catching passes and can actually play three downs. Which means we are not tied into LB at 9 in Round 1 (thankfully especially after Foster failed the drug test).

No. Not content with the LB corp as is. Burfict is still the only one who has proven to be more than just "a guy".

(04-23-2017, 04:30 PM)eoxyod Wrote: LB is the least important position on defense if you have one good one and 2 other decentish ones. Defensive line will always need to be beefed up much more and linebackers manage to look much better

Yeah, it starts in the trenches man. We need a pass rusher opposite Dunlap before another LB.

But i am not content with our LB situation either.

(04-24-2017, 02:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I never said you can't rely on him to stay healthy for 16 games or that he was an injury liability, I said you can't rely on him to play 16 games. He is...

1 Concussion away from missing large amounts of time.
1 Dirty hit away from missing large amounts of time on suspension.
1 Offseason of overeating/underworking again away from being ineffective for large amounts of time.

Of course mixed in with the normal NFL player's everyday risk of season ending injury that's unavoidable, but only one of those three things I mentioned is injury-related. Burfict is a great LB, but there's a lot of things to hesitate over. He's also in his contract year, so he'll be a FA next season. Does another team offer him a bajillion dollar contract that the Bengals won't match?

You go into the next offseason with Burfict and Minter both FAs, and you're going to see a repeat of this offseason with Whitworth and Zeitler both leaving. Then the Bengals will be left with a LB group of PJ Dawson, Vincent Rey, and Nick Vigil. No thanks.

I am 100% on board that a 4th round rook isn't going to be a good substitute for Burfict this year, or anyone else. So if you get them this year, it's highly unlikely the Bengals keep both Burfict and Minter. Hopefully the rookie season will give that LB draft pick time to be ready for 2018. Otherwise in the 2018 draft you'll HAVE to take a LB, and you'll have the same rookie problem.

You raise some really good points and some stuff I disagree with.

1. The concussions were and I guess still are a concern...but I feel better about Burfict's health after last year, and it seems like concussions were only a problem for one year. Outside of that year, it has been a non-issue. I'm starting to think it was a blip on the radar there. I was also encouraged last year by Burfict toning down the dirty play. Tbh, I think the main issue for Burfict was hurting Steelers players. The league wouldn't stand for that. Other than 2015, the league has left Burfict alone. He just can't be taking out the 3 B's...clean hits or not.

2. I think Burfict's dirty reputation will help us with contract negotiations to an extent. Plus even though I do think Burfict is capable of staying healthy, I'm sure teams will look at how he missed 22 games over the last 3 seasons. At the very least, you have to admit that Burfict wasn't able to prove himself any further over that span. If anything, his stock has gone down a bit since he signed that very reasonable 4 year/19 million contract. Obviously he's not going to sign for that exact number again, but I think his next contract will be remain fair and make it easy for the Bengals to retain him. Plus the dude looks at Marv like a father figure. I think he loves being a Bengal.

3. You seem unimpressed by Vigil and Dawson (both 3rd round picks), but you want a 4th rounder for insurance? I just don't get that. Vigil and Dawson haven't had much opportunity to play yet with the guys ahead of them and how the Bengals use LB's...so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those guys. Now do I want both of those guys in the starting lineup next year? Probably not, but I don't see how a 4th rounder will make you feel any safer about 2018. 

4. I'd like to see a slightly slimmer Burfict, but I think you're at least slightly overstating that problem. I don't think Burfict is going to eat his way out of the league. For all we know, that's the weight coaches wanted him at. Marv has always liked his LB's big for some reason. He's living in the past there, IMO.

The reasons I say we should roll with what we have are:

(a) It's more likely than not that we'll be able to retain both Burfict and Minter with reasonable offers.
(b) drafting a 1st round LB likely means we automatically let go of at least one of these guys. Maybe Burfict. No thanks.
[c) I'm okay with drafting a 4th rounder, but with our draft history with LB's, I see that as an inconsequential move.
(d) Even if by some nightmare scenario we lose both Burfict and Minter, this team has never been shy about signing a FA LB or 2. They're much cheaper than FA o-linemen.

TL/DR: I don't mind drafting a LB in the mid-rounds, but I don't think it's going to make losing Burfict and/or Minter sting any less...should that happen.

We know what we have in Minter, he has proven himself in the NFL. Vigil has yet to prove anything as far as being able to take the wear and tear of a full NFL season. I used to want Foster, but have moved on from that pick. (How many players were "sick and pushing fluids" at the combine anyway?) If you don't have the sense to step away from the weed when you know the combine is coming, you don't have enough sense not to smoke it during the season and fail random drug tests. I am leaning towards wanting TJ Watt or Vince Biegle out of Wisconsin...

If you guys haven't seen the voluntary camp photos, Burfict is in the best shape of his life from what i saw.

Sled is spot on about Minter who is an upgrade in every way over Maualuga.

Having these two tutoring up Vigil should really help. I like Flowers everytime he has got a shot.

It is not so bad at LB but i would definately like to add one or two in the draft.

With Sled as well not wanting Foster.

TJ Watt is predicted to go in the 1st rd., but Beigel should be there in the 4th.....

(04-25-2017, 01:21 PM)Sled21 Wrote: TJ Watt is predicted to go in the 1st rd., but Beigel should be there in the 4th.....

I would like Beigel in the 4th. Good run stopper and he can cover. Makes plays.

(04-23-2017, 04:30 PM)eoxyod Wrote: LB is the least important position on defense if you have one good one and 2 other decentish ones. Defensive line will always need to be beefed up much more and linebackers manage to look much better

This is my thoughts.

So to the OP...

Yes, I'm good with the LB situation. In context of the draft: I'm incredibly satisfied with the LB.

There are several good DL. We need a few, both as game changers and as rotational guys. Take advantage of what the Draft gods have given us. We can plug LB in to drop back in coverage/redirect runners all day.