(08-03-2015, 12:31 PM)xavierdude Wrote: .some of us would like to see wins in the playoffs. 

Well aren't you special.

Please don't waste our time with comments like this.

(08-03-2015, 12:41 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Okay, feel free to look like the idiot who called one of the most universally respected and honored OL coaches "overrated" 

*hint* Scarnecchia coached things other than OL for awhile too but don't let that ruin your narrative. 

So he was promoted a time or two, huh?  Musta forgot the man's credentials from this discussion on the old site.  My mistake......

How many times has good ol Ludwig Van Alexander been promoted?

*hint* You won't need all of your fingers on one hand to count them.......

(08-03-2015, 12:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: I showed you a gradual progression for most of those guys, sans Buddy Ryan, on the old board....including Kiffin (who HAS been a HC at the Div I collegiate level), vs the stagnant career of Mozart, Jr.  I'm not going to bother again.....

What does being a college head coahc have to do with the fact that he was a good DC for 15 years and was never promoted?

The fact that he failed as a college head coach actually proves my point more than yours.  

(08-03-2015, 12:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: So he was promoted a time or two, huh?  Musta forgot the man's credentials from this discussion on the old site.  My mistake......

How many times has good ol Ludwig Van Alexander been promoted?

*hint* You won't need all of your fingers on one hand to count them.......

You're looking at it all wrong.
And showing a complete lack of understanding.

You're argument is essentially "No promotion! Rabble rabble rabble!"

Why is that so important?
What the ****** does getting a promotion have to do with being a good OL coach?

Do you know the difference in responsibilities from OL coach to Offensive Coordinator? Head Coach? 

Seriously, do you know the differences? 

(08-03-2015, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What does being a college head coahc have to do with the fact that he was a good DC for 15 years and was never promoted?

The fact that he failed as a college head coach actually proves my point more than yours.  

.....he was promoted countless times at several levels, that's the point now, and was when we discussed this prior.  How many times has piano man been promoted at any level?

(08-03-2015, 12:53 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You're looking at it all wrong.
And showing a complete lack of understanding.

You're argument is essentially "No promotion! Rabble rabble rabble!"

Why is that so important?
What the ****** does getting a promotion have to do with being a good OL coach?

Do you know the difference in responsibilities from OL coach to Offensive Coordinator? Head Coach? 

Seriously, do you know the differences? 

Maybe just a little......and this is an ongoing discussion for at least a couple years.....there have been MANY more points raised aside from rabble rabble over the course of this discussion.  I honestly don't feel like addressing them all again.  Hell, I've linked to the history of this o line clinic that I was told Paul "puts on" (which was totally incorrect, he's an invited speaker from time to time, as are a few other in state coaches.....shocking, right?), and many other sources to back all of my opinions.  I ain't doin' it today.  The lack of promotion is but one of several pieces of evidence that say ol Johann Sebastian Paul should stick to piano......along with being saddled with no promotion for what was once a NFL laughing stock.

It's funny he gets credit for anything good with the line, but if there's a weakness with the unit, it's the FO's fault, or he was handcuffed.....lol.

(08-03-2015, 01:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe just a little......and this is an ongoing discussion for at least a couple years.....there have been MANY more points raised aside from rabble rabble over the course of this discussion.  I honestly don't feel like addressing them all again.  Hell, I've linked to the history of this o line clinic that I was told Paul "puts on" (which was totally incorrect, he's an invited speaker from time to time, as are a few other in state coaches.....shocking, right?), and many other sources to back all of my opinions.  I ain't doin' it today.  The lack of promotion is but one of several pieces of evidence that say ol Johann Sebastian Paul should stick to piano......along with being saddled with no promotion for what was once a NFL laughing stock.

It's funny he gets credit for anything good with the line, but if there's a weakness with the unit, it's the FO's fault, or he was handcuffed.....lol.

So now you are trashing the COOL clinic? Oh good god you've got your tool pajamas on today

Did Paul Alexander **** your wife?

(08-03-2015, 01:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe just a little......and this is an ongoing discussion for at least a couple years.....there have been MANY more points raised aside from rabble rabble over the course of this discussion.  I honestly don't feel like addressing them all again.  Hell, I've linked to the history of this o line clinic that I was told Paul "puts on" (which was totally incorrect, he's an invited speaker from time to time, as are a few other in state coaches.....shocking, right?), and many other sources to back all of my opinions.  I ain't doin' it today.  The lack of promotion is but one of several pieces of evidence that say ol Johann Sebastian Paul should stick to piano......along with being saddled with no promotion for what was once a NFL laughing stock.

It's funny he gets credit for anything good with the line, but if there's a weakness with the unit, it's the FO's fault, or he was handcuffed.....lol.

So, what are the differences? 
Please. Tell me. 

(08-02-2015, 11:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He developed Nate Livings from an undrafted free agent to a player who got  $22 million contract.

He developed Stacy Andrews from a guy who did not even play football in college to a guy who got a $40 million free agent contract.

He developed undrafted Kyle Cook into a very good center.

He developed 4th round pick Anthony Collins into a guy who got a $30 million ree agent contract.

He developed Clint Boling froma 4th round pick to a guy who got a $26 million contract.

Rich Braham was cut by the Cardinals before Alexander developed him into a very good center.

I'm not sure what their contract size has to do with anything.  Are we now saying that the position coaches for players like Antonio Bryant are automatically above average because a player they coached was overpaid?

I mean, call me crazy, but wouldn't the best way to judge a coaches job on a player be the actual level of play?

Nate Livings only started for one season is Dallas and hasn't played since.  He was only 29 when he made his last start.  And, he wasn't very good for the bulk of his time here either.  He had a couple adequate years and a team greatly overpaid for it.  The fact you're using NATE LIVINGS as an example of good coaching shows just how desperate you are.

Anthony Collins was a career backup here.  He only finally saw starts because of injury.  Prior to TB he never saw more than 7 starts in a season.  Even in Tampa Bay he only saw 10.  Another player who was greatly overpaid and who is now without a team, after only one season elsewhere.  Again, the fact you're using him as an example, when you have over 20 years of history, shows how desperate you are.

I'm not sure what you're implying about Clint Boling.  Since when is developing a 4th round guard into an average starters contract a huge accomplishment?  Someone has to start, and someone is going to get paid starter's money.  1st round guard are somewhat of a rarity and were virtually unheard of until recently.  That means the bulk of starters around the league came after, many in the middle rounds.  I'm not saying he's done bad with Boling, but I don't know how it's an example of great coaching.

Rich Braham saw every snap of entire career here and was a former 3rd round pick.  Many forget that he didn't make the move to center and didn't really hit stride until after he was 30.  Which make you wonder what took so long.  He spent 5 years he as a guard, and he wasn't that good either.  All that said, Braham may be his best coaching job.

You've got 22 years to work with.  Yet we're left debating contract size rather than actual level of play.  If this is the best you got then I think you may be making the very point you're arguing against.  Pretty weak list for the dozens upon dozens of players he's had the opportunity to coach up.

(08-03-2015, 12:58 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....he was promoted countless times at several levels, that's the point now, and was when we discussed this prior.  How many times has piano man been promoted at any level?

Playing and coaching history: 1979-81—Played offensive tackle, Cortland State. 1983-84—Graduate assistant, Penn State. 1985-86—Graduate assistant, Michigan. 1987-91—Assistant coach (AC), Central Michigan. 1992-93—AC, N.Y. Jets. 1994-2002—AC, Bengals.2003-present—Assistant head coach/offensive line coach, Cincinnati Bengals.

(08-02-2015, 11:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Patriots had the same O-line coach, Dante Scarnecchia, for 22 years ('91-'13)

Monte Kiffin was DC in Tampa for 15 years.

Both of these guys were highly regarded coaches for good teams.

I'm not sure you read what was written.  In it I talked about position coaches either moving up to coordinator jobs, taking more elsewhere, being paid at the current position at or near the top, or staying for winning.

Right off the bat, your Kiffin example makes little to no sense for this debate.  I specifically mentioned position coaches.  I even said most position coaches, when either good or great, move on to coordinator roles.  Debating why a coordinator stays in one spot is an entirely different conversation than an OL coach.

As for the Patriots coach.  I remember sarcastically writing that maybe Paul has stayed for all the winning done here.  Well that may actually have been true for the Patriots coach.  He had been to what, 6 Superbowls during his tenure.  As an OL/Assistant HC he enjoyed a great deal of personal and team success.

Maybe, just maybe an OL coach wants to only be an OL coach and isn't interested in more money.  Ok, fair enough.  But like I said before, what's keeping him in one spot?  Success?  Being paid at or near the top?  Because Paul hasn't had the success.  And I highly doubt money kept him from 1993 to 20xx either.  Also, Scarnecchia was hired away at one point, leaving for the Colts in 1989. 

Again, what's keeping Paul here?  You tell me.

It's easy for people to puff their chests out about Paulie G after a year where the team finished 12th in average per rush and gave up only 23 sacks. I'm not so quick to forget about the previous 8 seasons though. During those 8 seasons, they had an average rank of 27th in average per rush, with an average of 33 sacks allowed per season.

That's nearly a decade of terrible run production and average at best pass protection. Especially considering we've had a pair of QB's who get rid of the ball quickly. That's not even getting into the 90's.

Last year was easily the best year of Paul's tenure, as far as production is concerned. And again, who has he developed? I get that every team uses some top picks on o-linemen, but after 20 years, you'd think there'd be a pretty decent list of late round guys that Paul developed. Or busts that he turned around.

(08-03-2015, 01:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Playing and coaching history: 1979-81—Played offensive tackle, Cortland State. 1983-84—Graduate assistant, Penn State. 1985-86—Graduate assistant, Michigan. 1987-91—Assistant coach (AC), Central Michigan. 1992-93—AC, N.Y. Jets. 1994-2002—AC, Bengals.2003-present—Assistant head coach/offensive line coach, Cincinnati Bengals.

Five....I count five......told ya you wouldn't need more than one hand's worth of fingers.......and one of those is more than likely a status symbol here.....

(08-03-2015, 01:41 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: So now you are trashing the COOL clinic? Oh good god you've got your tool pajamas on today

Did Paul Alexander **** your wife?

Who's trashing the shroom boys?  I merely stated it was completely false that Paul "puts on the clinic" .  Slow down and read......


Do you nuzzle Pauly's nads?

(08-03-2015, 01:44 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: So, what are the differences? 
Please. Tell me. 

Truth is, it's both their faults.......mainly the FO's fault for keeping this bum here....

(08-03-2015, 02:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Five....I count five......told ya you wouldn't need more than one hand's worth of fingers.......and one of those is more than likely a status symbol here.....

Here is why your logic fails.

Monte Kiffin never got a promotion once he became a DC.  According to you that means he was not any good.

The number of promotions he got before that does not matter unless you are trying to say that Kiffin was good at all the other positions he got promoted from, because once he became DC he had exactly as many promotions as Paul Alexander.

(08-03-2015, 01:57 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Right off the bat, your Kiffin example makes little to no sense for this debate.  I specifically mentioned position coaches.  I even said most position coaches, when either good or great, move on to coordinator roles.  Debating why a coordinator stays in one spot is an entirely different conversation than an OL coach.

This makes no sense at all because almost all head coaches are former coordinators.

(08-03-2015, 02:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's easy for people to puff their chests out about Paulie G after a year where the team finished 12th in average per rush and gave up only 23 sacks. I'm not so quick to forget about the previous 8 seasons though. During those 8 seasons, they had an average rank of 27th in average per rush, with an average of 33 sacks allowed per season.

That's nearly a decade of terrible run production and average at best pass protection. Especially considering we've had a pair of QB's who get rid of the ball quickly. That's not even getting into the 90's.

Last year was easily the best year of Paul's tenure, as far as production is concerned. And again, who has he developed? I get that every team uses some top picks on o-linemen, but after 20 years, you'd think there'd be a pretty decent list of late round guys that Paul developed. Or busts that he turned around.

You completely ignore what happened in the that 8th season.
Levi Jones, franchise LT got hurt.
Eric Steinbach, all pro LG got hurt.
Willie Anderson, all pro RT got old. 
Bobbie Williams, top 10 RG got old.
Then you factor the Palmer injury, Palmer was a statue for awhile after the knee. He couldn't avoid anything. 

He had to completely rebuild the OL.
Great OL don't grow on trees. The OL from 2004-2006 was good. Then injuries and age happened. 
They stopped giving him draft picks to work with. 
Between 2004 and 2008 (5 drafts) we spent 1 draft pick on OL above the 4th round (Andrew Whitworth, 2nd round 2006)
Then we didn't do it again until 2009 with Andre in the first. 
2012 with Zeitler. 

(08-03-2015, 01:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I Yet we're left debating contract size rather than actual level of play. 

What do you think determines how much a player gets on the free agent market?

(08-03-2015, 03:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is why your logic fails.

Monte Kiffin never got a promotion once he became a DC.  According to you that means he was not any good.

The number of promotions he got before that does not matter unless you are trying to say that Kiffin was good at all the other positions he got promoted from, because once he became DC he had exactly as many promotions as Paul Alexander.

.....but that's not my logic at all.

Kiffin was promoted across several positions, at several levels, for several teams, meaning he was sought after.

Alexander, after graduate work:  exactly three teams and two positions....and one "title"...... :snark: