(08-03-2015, 01:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not sure what you're implying about Clint Boling.  Since when is developing a 4th round guard into an average starters contract a huge accomplishment?

Since most fourth rounders fail.

Do you realize how many o-linemne have been drafted in the first 4 rounds over the last 5 years?  Over the last 10 years there have been 18 other OGs taken in the 4th round.  Only 3 of them have started more games than Clint Boling.

Educate yourself about how this stuff works.  You try to rip Paul Alexander without looking around the league and seeing how all the other OCs are doing. If it is no big deal to develop a fourth round guard into a very solid starter then why aren't any other coaches around the league doing it?

(08-03-2015, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What do you think determines how much a player gets on the free agent market?

How hard he works in his contract year mostly.

Never use Livings as an example though, Dallas was simply desperate and overpaid.

(08-03-2015, 03:58 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....but that's not my logic at all.

Kiffin was promoted across several positions, at several levels, for several teams, meaning he was sought after.

Alexander, after graduate work:  exactly three teams and two positions....and one "title"...... :snark:

Maybe he only ever wanted to be an OL coach? 
Maybe he had no interest in dealing with WRs, QBs and shit?

Howard Mudd only ever coached OL
Jim McNally only ever coached OL

Technically after becoming a "coach" with a "title" McNally only had 4 "promotions"


Look what happened when Mike Munchak got promoted....
Do they suck too? 

(08-03-2015, 04:03 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Maybe he only ever wanted to be an OL coach? 
Maybe he had no interest in dealing with WRs, QBs and shit?

Howard Mudd only ever coached OL
Jim McNally only ever coached OL

Technically after becoming a "coach" with a "title" McNally only had 4 "promotions"


Look what happened when Mike Munchak got promoted....
Do they suck too? 

Munchak got hosed......but that's another topic.....I thought he did an admirable job, all things considered, in Tennessee for his first HC gig.

.....you may be right.....but McNally was coaching in Super Bowls, and has a HOFer on his resume.....Howard Mudd was an innovator, along with Peyton and Co in Indy.

If we were some sort of powerhouse, winning playoff games, going to Super Bowls, and actually "imposing our will" on folks like our OC suggests we do, I'd have to give these theories a little more thought.  That's not the case here.......and we had to go with unbalanced line sets to have our best numbers running the football in recent years.......

FWIW, I don't think the guy is absolutely God awful terrible, that's message board hyperbole......I do, however, think he is vastly overrated on here, and I think that this team could do better, and it is beyond time to move on.  He's serviceable, but we could, and should be doing better.....

Funny you mention Munchak, we should've dropped Paulie like a bad habit and went after him with both barrels blazing when he became available.

(08-03-2015, 04:02 PM)Stormborn Wrote: How hard he works in his contract year mostly.

Never use Livings as an example though, Dallas was simply desperate and overpaid.

So Livings was the only O-lineman on the free agent market that year?

That is not how I remember it.

In terms of coaches on this staff I'm worried about, Paul Alexander is right with Carrier, Joseph and Caskey in terms of "not really worried"

Hayes (TE) and Zampese (QB) are much worse on offense.

(08-03-2015, 04:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: .I do, however, think he is vastly overrated on here, and I think that this team could do better, and it is beyond time to move on.  He's serviceable, but we could, and should be doing better.....

So the time to get rid of a coach is when he is having his most success?

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

(08-03-2015, 04:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Munchak got hosed......but that's another topic.....I thought he did an admirable job, all things considered, in Tennessee for his first HC gig.

.....you may be right.....but McNally was coaching in Super Bowls, and has a HOFer on his resume.....Howard Mudd was an innovator, along with Peyton and Co in Indy.

If we were some sort of powerhouse, winning playoff games, going to Super Bowls, and actually "imposing our will" on folks like our OC suggests we do, I'd have to give these theories a little more thought.  That's not the case here.......and we had to go with unbalanced line sets to have our best numbers running the football in recent years.......

FWIW, I don't think the guy is absolutely God awful terrible, that's message board hyperbole......I do, however, think he is vastly overrated on here, and I think that this team could do better, and it is beyond time to move on.  He's serviceable, but we could, and should be doing better.....

Funny you mention Munchak, we should've dropped Paulie like a bad habit and went after him with both barrels blazing when he became available.

We haven't used a ton of unbalanced since we've drafted Dalton. And every team uses it. 
Why? because we had shit at QB. We had to run. Teams knew it. 

I agree we should have pursued Munchak.

And no one except me and fred ever seem to "overrate" him by simply saying he's not as bad as everyone says. 

(08-03-2015, 04:18 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: In terms of coaches on this staff I'm worried about, Paul Alexander is right with Carrier, Joseph and Caskey in terms of "not really worried"

Hayes (TE) and Zampese (QB) are much worse on offense.

Now THIS, we can agree upon!

(08-03-2015, 04:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the time to get rid of a coach is when he is having his most success?

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

We are stacked there at the moment, yeah, time to get some fresh eyes and ideas in there before it's too late.  As I said, I would have liked to have seen a push for Munchak.....our division rivals seemed to think he was worth a look.

(08-03-2015, 04:21 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: We haven't used a ton of unbalanced since we've drafted Dalton. And every team uses it. 
Why? because we had shit at QB. We had to run. Teams knew it. 

I agree we should have pursued Munchak.

And no one except me and fred ever seem to "overrate" him by simply saying he's not as bad as everyone says. 

Meh, Palmer wasn't any worse than Dalton....aside from mobility....in '09.  I know every team uses it.....we were running it in pee wee league.....I just don't recall seeing a team make a living out of it like we did then.  

......but that's not "simply" what y'all been sayin'.

(08-03-2015, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since most fourth rounders fail.

Do you realize how many o-linemne have been drafted in the first 4 rounds over the last 5 years?  Over the last 10 years there have been 18 other OGs taken in the 4th round.  Only 3 of them have started more games than Clint Boling.

Educate yourself about how this stuff works.  You try to rip Paul Alexander without looking around the league and seeing how all the other OCs are doing.  If it is no big deal to develop a fourth round guard into a very solid starter then why aren't any other coaches around the league doing it?

You're applauding him for having a starting player earn a starting player's salary.  Think about that for a second.  Someone has to start.  Holding up the fact that Boling just inked a contract right about the current rate for a starting OG is askin to saying your salesmen are top notch because Bob Jones makes the national average for a salesmen.

It simply doesn't make any sense.  It's a stupid thing to applaud. By default, someone is going to get paid starter's money if they stay here beyond their initial contract.  And fwiw, I would guess that the average draft position for a starting OG in these league is around round 3.  I'm not sure developing a 4th rounder is anything out of the ordinary and/or a tremendous coaching job.

(08-03-2015, 04:28 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You're applauding him for having a starting player earn a starting player's salary.  Think about that for a second.  Someone has to start.  Holding up the fact that Boling just inked a contract right about the current rate for a starting OG is askin to saying your salesmen are top notch because Bob Jones makes the national average for a salesmen.

It simply doesn't make any sense.  It's a stupid thing to applaud. By default, someone is going to get paid starter's money if they stay here beyond their initial contract.  And fwiw, I would guess that the average draft position for a starting OG in these league is around round 3.  I'm not sure developing a 4th rounder is anything out of the ordinary and/or a tremendous coaching job.

This is total gibberish.  What do you mean "Someone has to start"?  Do you hionestly think that there are not other options and we are forced to re-sign a guy we drfted in the fourth round?  That does not even make any sense.  besides Boling isn't just starting .  He is a key player in one of the best O-lines in the league.

Also noticed that you did not explain why only 3 of 18 OGs taken in the 4th round have started more than Boling?  Doesn't "someone have to start" for every other team in the league?  If it is not big deal then why isn't every other OG taken in the 4th round starting and playing at a high level like Boling?

(08-03-2015, 12:32 PM)xavierdude Wrote: Paul Alexander is a good coach..not the problem with the bengals

x2, This is exactly what I was going to say. He's not the problem. The problem lies elsewhere.

(08-03-2015, 03:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You completely ignore what happened in the that 8th season.
Levi Jones, franchise LT got hurt.
Eric Steinbach, all pro LG got hurt.
Willie Anderson, all pro RT got old. 
Bobbie Williams, top 10 RG got old.
Then you factor the Palmer injury, Palmer was a statue for awhile after the knee. He couldn't avoid anything. 

He had to completely rebuild the OL.
Great OL don't grow on trees. The OL from 2004-2006 was good. Then injuries and age happened. 
They stopped giving him draft picks to work with. 
Between 2004 and 2008 (5 drafts) we spent 1 draft pick on OL above the 4th round (Andrew Whitworth, 2nd round 2006)
Then we didn't do it again until 2009 with Andre in the first. 
2012 with Zeitler. 

If he were as great a coach as some think, he should've been able to work through some adversity and develop some guys who weren't top picks. It's not like the cupboard was bare, especially in recent years. From 2011-13, the team finished 27th, 20th and 28th in yards per carry. 

They've been solid in pass protection with the exception of 2012, when coaches were pressuring Dalton to hold the ball longer and make more "unscripted plays". That resulted in 46 sacks for the year, which makes you wonder if the quick snap-to-throw times really do reduce the sacks and pressures.

I think most o-line coaches could "rebuild" a line with a pair of 1st round picks, a 2nd rounder, and multiple mid-round choices. Even with all that top talent, they've struggled running the ball with the exception of last year. I agree with you about other coaches (Hayes, Zampese) being more worthy of criticism, but there's plenty of arguments to be made against Paul despite last year's success.

(08-03-2015, 04:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Livings was the only O-lineman on the free agent market that year?

That is not how I remember it.

Looking back at that class of free agents, Nicks, Grubbs, Mathis were all on the market that year.

Dallas couldn't afford any of them, they all received big deals and Livings' value increased because of it, even though he was no where near the player as those three at the time. He was a wreck that entire year, along with McGlynn.

I can't remember if Livings was signed before those 3 or not though.

(08-03-2015, 02:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: Truth is, it's both their faults.......mainly the FO's fault for keeping this bum here....

Have you ever considered he turned down job offers to remain in Cincy because that was his home? I can't find much info on PA but not everyone likes to uproot their family and move them across country.

(08-03-2015, 05:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If he were as great a coach as some think, he should've been able to work through some adversity and develop some guys who weren't top picks. It's not like the cupboard was bare, especially in recent years. From 2011-13, the team finished 27th, 20th and 28th in yards per carry. 

They've been solid in pass protection with the exception of 2012, when coaches were pressuring Dalton to hold the ball longer and make more "unscripted plays". That resulted in 46 sacks for the year, which makes you wonder if the quick snap-to-throw times really do reduce the sacks and pressures.

I think most o-line coaches could "rebuild" a line with a pair of 1st round picks, a 2nd rounder, and multiple mid-round choices. Even with all that top talent, they've struggled running the ball with the exception of last year. I agree with you about other coaches (Hayes, Zampese) being more worthy of criticism, but there's plenty of arguments to be made against Paul despite last year's success.

He's a good coach. Sure he could find a few good guys who weren't top picks but he isn't going to find 5 at the same time. Almost a statistical impossibility. 
Who were the RBs? That played a factor in 11-13 as well as Gruden wanting to work without a FB while having an OL that wasn't built to block 2nd level like they were asked.
So what did they do? Andre and Whit slimmed down a bit. Transformed themselves as blockers. 

(08-03-2015, 05:38 PM)Synric Wrote: Have you ever considered he turned down job offers to remain in Cincy because that was his home? I can't find much info on PA but not everyone likes to uproot their family and move them across country.

He's from NewYork, played college ball at New York's Cortland State......he's not home in Cincy.  Son of Paul won't can him, of course he doesn't want to leave.

That said, unlike our illustrious QB coach, at least he played the damn position at one point in his life! Lol

(08-03-2015, 08:13 PM)Wyche Wrote: He's from NewYork, played college ball at New York's Cortland State......he's not home in Cincy.  Son of Paul won't can him, of course he doesn't want to leave.

That said, unlike our illustrious QB coach, at least he played the damn position at one point in his life! Lol

My dad was born in California, raised in Indiana went to school in Texas. 
He calls Cincinnati home because he likes it here more than he did those other places. 

(08-03-2015, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is total gibberish.  What do you mean "Someone has to start"?  Do you hionestly think that there are not other options and we are forced to re-sign a guy we drfted in the fourth round?  That does not even make any sense.  besides Boling isn't just starting .  He is a key player in one of the best O-lines in the league.

Also noticed that you did not explain why only 3 of 18 OGs taken in the 4th round have started more than Boling?  Doesn't "someone have to start" for every other team in the league?  If it is not big deal then why isn't every other OG taken in the 4th round starting and playing at a high level like Boling?

Exactly what I said.  Someone has to start.  And they're not all going to be 1st and 2nd rounders.  I'd be willing to bet that every single team in the league has a starting OL that was drafted in the 3rd round or later.  Some teams probably have multiple OL who went mid to late rounds.

So what exactly are you applauding? That he coached up a mid round pick to a starting gig?  An OG no less, who are, more often than not, drafted well behind their OT counterparts.  If so, you're applauding a result that pretty every single OL coach ever has matched.  What's next, giving praise to Hue Jackson for having an offense that scored both rushing and passing TD's in a single game?

As far as your 3 out of 19 stat I really don't even know what you're trying to say.  What are the numbers on 5th rounders, 6th rounders, 7th, 3rd? What are they in relation to 1st and 2nd? How do these numbers relate to both coaching and scouting?

So we have a 4th round guard, who started more games than all but 3 others?  What exactly does this mean as far as PA is concerned?  Can we hang a banner for that?