(08-01-2015, 06:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 30 days in an African Jail is quite different

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

(08-02-2015, 12:40 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: How do you know he knew he was poaching?   If your hiring a guide your counting on them.    Sending him to Zimbabwe would be a death sentence.   Any jail time in their prisons is ridiculously hard....    Your acting like he slaughtered children and posted photos on Twitter.     I know you value this lion but it's not worth this man's life.  

It's bad enough there are people here actually going to his office and harassing him and his patients going in and out.    

If he did this to a person or a child I would agree with you that he needs to go back... But no way on this

I'm acting like no such thing.  That's you injecting personal beliefs (in this instance, a complete lack of regard for this animal and the effect on his pride) into the argument.  This isn't about my personal values or beliefs.  It's against the law to poach a lion.  Period.  At the very least he witnessed and benefited from a poaching, and he may have been actively involved.  See, you have a trial to sort out all of that sort of stuff.  He needs to face the charge and present his defense. 

And, at no time did I or anyone in this thread advocate the harassing of his family or patients.  That is wrong, and if anyone breaks the law in doing so, then they also should face the consequences of their actions.

You're producing anecdotal evidence about the treatment in Zimbabwe's jails.  If I produced anecdotal evidence about how, say, the police treat minorities in this country (and, I have a hell of a lot more than three Youtube videos to work with), then you'd be screaming about me painting all policemen with one brush.  And, I'm guessing that his treatment, as a white American with the entire globe watching, would be a lot better than any average citizen might get.  And, if that sounds liike a gamble for him, then I would suggest he shouldn't have been involved with the poaching from the outset.

(08-02-2015, 05:54 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

And this again and again.  He may very well have broken the law, so he needs to face the charges. 

(08-01-2015, 07:01 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The guides are in charge of all that.... And he paid for their expertise.   And even if the dentist ordered the guides to lure the prized lion out so he could drug him then kill him.    The guides could have turned him in straight away.    

What I suspect happened was the guides couldn't find the guy any lions and did what they had to do to get one.   The fact the dentist posted the pics on his social media acct proves he had no idea.  You don't knowingly break the law and then post pics on social media.

People are caught breaking the law all the time because of the pictures and videos they post on their own social media accounts.

(08-02-2015, 05:50 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: But even in the US, if you break the law you're still liable.  What would normally happen is a plea in exchange for your testimony to nail the tour operator.

(08-02-2015, 05:51 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: My understanding is that's a common hunting practice.  This probably wouldn't have registered with local authorities if the lion in question wasn't a "celebrity"

(08-02-2015, 05:54 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

i don't think that this is a big deal to Zimbabwe. They are only showing concern because of the public relations nightmare if they acted like it was no big deal . They shit down lion and other hunts. That's big business over there.... No way that stays out for long.

And if that was me in The dentist shoes, I woildnt go back unless it was only to testify against the guides.

And if we send him back then I guess we will see this story on locked up abroad lol

(08-02-2015, 01:25 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: i don't think that this is a big deal to Zimbabwe.   They are only showing concern because of the public relations nightmare if they acted like it was no big deal .  They shit down lion and other hunts.   That's big business over there.... No way that stays out for long.    

And if that was me in The dentist shoes, I woildnt go back unless it was only to testify against the guides.    

And if we send him back then I guess we will see this story on locked up abroad  lol

To the bold: that's no way to treat an animal. Unless they're into that sort of thing. But usually you have to pay extra.


As far as the dentist, ignorance is no excuse. If you buy a 60-inch tv out of the back of a truck for $50, you fail the reasonable person test and are guilty of receiving stolen property. That's true of many crimes. If someone using common sense under normal conditions can determine it's a crime, the party is guilty of committing it even if they don't have direct knowledge. Along the same lines, ignorance of the law is no excuse. You're still guilty of breaking it even if you don't know or have no reason to know it's wrong.

So the "oh, he was just relying on his guides" doesn't hold a lot of water. The guy was an experienced hunter, he was hunting an exotic species and he paid well above the price for a guided safari hunt.

And I'd say it's a big deal to Zimbabwe. The guide alone is looking at 15 years, if I remember right. That's a serious chunk of time just for abetting.

I'm not even concerned with the dentist being charged with something, it's the worldwide outrage that is ridiculous.

(08-01-2015, 09:49 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: It's just a lion.    Zimbabwe makes loads off these hunting trips.    

Unless he baited the lion from the park .   Which it's obvious he didn't ....  He should be clear.    Now his guides will have to answer why they baited him out.    

Either way it's just a lion.   People are gonna eat loads of lion because of that dentist.   And he gets a cool mount.

Where did you read the lion was eaten?  I read that they found the headless carcass; if the clown would've donated a bunch of lion meat to the locals, I'm guessing he would've made sure that was mentioned.

Cool mount?  He's got something that shows he was in the same zip code as the lion.  He was in about as much danger from the lion as I am if I go to the freaking zoo.  If he wants to show how much of a 'man' he is, why not get up close with the lion and take his chances?

(08-02-2015, 12:40 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:   Sending him to Zimbabwe would be a death sentence.  

 

(08-02-2015, 12:40 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: How do you know he knew he was poaching?   If your hiring a guide your counting on them.    Sending him to Zimbabwe would be a death sentence.   Any jail time in their prisons is ridiculously hard....    Your acting like he slaughtered children and posted photos on Twitter.     I know you value this lion but it's not worth this man's life.  

It's bad enough there are people here actually going to his office and harassing him and his patients going in and out.    

If he did this to a person or a child I would agree with you that he needs to go back... But no way on this

You keep stating that he was somehow ignorant of the fact that he was in the middle of a poaching expedition. Seriously? This is a guy who has been on various big game hunts over the span of a few years, and had a legal issue prior to this involving a bear...and we're to believe that he was just a innocent, clueless hunter who ended up in the midst of an illegal hunt and kill...and then was shocked to learn that his guides had illegally baited/lured the lion? 


Either he knew exactly what he was doing and what he was paying for (based on his previous experiences) or he is a drooling idiot, with an IQ of 12, that had no clue of where he was, what he paid for, or what was happening around him.  :snark:

(08-03-2015, 11:50 AM)nevergonnachange Wrote: Cool mount?  He's got something that shows he was in the same zip code as the lion.  He was in about as much danger from the lion as I am if I go to the freaking zoo.  If he wants to show how much of a 'man' he is, why not get up close with the lion and take his chances?

Yep.  This was what was called a habituated lion. He was a known study.  He had been tagged, tracked and filmed.
There was no bravado at all involved here.  They tricked a vulnerable animal...basically taking advantage of his circumstance more than hunting him.    

(08-03-2015, 01:18 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Yep.  This was what was called a habituated lion. He was a known study.  He had been tagged, tracked and filmed.
There was no bravado at all involved here.  They tricked a vulnerable animal...basically taking advantage of his circumstance more than hunting him.    

He's probably the same type of guy that pays a couple thugs to beat up a dude he doesn't like...then he lays in a couple of little girl kicks while the guy is down...and then later brags about how much ass he whooped!

Cecil says he's doing alright.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/02/animal-psychic-claims-to-have-a-message-from-cecil-the-lion/

This is how zimbabwe generates tourism . They let you pay them to hunt game.

Article from 2012 about this ... http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2012/nov/02/zimbabwe-safari-tourism-returns

Why else go to zimbabwe?

(08-03-2015, 05:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This is how zimbabwe generates tourism .   They let you pay them to hunt game.    

Article from 2012 about this ... http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2012/nov/02/zimbabwe-safari-tourism-returns

Why else go to zimbabwe?

Plenty of ecotourism without big game hunting. In fact, without looking it up, I would venture to say that income generated via ecotourism far outweighs hunting.

(08-03-2015, 06:49 PM)Beaker Wrote: Plenty of ecotourism without big game hunting. In fact, without looking it up, I would venture to say that income generated via ecotourism far outweighs hunting.

Given how corrupt their government is and the risk of going there... I would be curios to see how it sizes up.

(08-03-2015, 06:49 PM)Beaker Wrote: Plenty of ecotourism without big game hunting. In fact, without looking it up, I would venture to say that income generated via ecotourism far outweighs hunting.

I get that you are a Science Teacher, and I respect that.  However, sightseeing in a dangerous environments seems pretty unprofitable..

(08-03-2015, 07:31 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Given how corrupt their government is and the risk of going there... I would be curios to see how it sizes up.

Yes, given the inherent danger, I would be curious to see an honest balance sheet of the two, as well.

(08-03-2015, 07:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get that you are a Science Teacher, and I respect that.  However, sightseeing in a dangerous environments seems pretty unprofitable..

Africa is not as dangerous as everyday American think. I was in Rwanda, Tanzania and Ethiopia last summer, and was perfectly safe. And Ethiopia borders Somalia. I would highly encourage any American who has the financial means to visit Africa.

Seems beaker is correct. But I would like to see the numbers on sight seeing.

Quote:REVENUE

Zimbabwe makes an estimated $20 million a year on trophy hunting, which represents 3.2 percent of its tourism revenue. The vast majority of trophy hunters are foreigners and across Africa, 25-30 percent of trophies go to Europe and 65 percent to the U.S.

___

LAWS

Hunting in Zimbabwe is allowed in safari areas, forestry areas, game ranches and communal lands. The number of lions allowed to be hunted every year is determined by reports of human-lion conflicts. More lions are allowed to be hunted in areas with higher lion-human conflict.

Only males are allowed to be hunted. The killing of females was banned in 2011 to reduce the impact of hunting on the population. There is no restriction on the age of the lions being hunted but these are being considered.


Hunting of lions in Zimbabwe can take place at any time of the year but in state-run areas it is limited to 30 minutes before sunrise and 30 minutes after sunset.

The lion must be shot at least 50 meters from a vehicle and must also be 400 meters from a water source.

(08-03-2015, 07:50 PM)Beaker Wrote: Africa is not as dangerous as everyday American think. I was in Rwanda, Tanzania and Ethiopia last summer, and was perfectly safe. And Ethiopia borders Somalia. I would highly encourage any American who has the financial means to visit Africa.

I have always wanted to go... But it will be on a hunt if I do go. I have always wanted to shoot an elephant.