(08-04-2015, 10:17 AM)djs7685 Wrote: So you still refuse to acknowledge that they WERE in the same promotion, WERE in the same weight class, and Cyborg was the champ. With your logic, the contender (Rousey) should have challenged Cyborg before going to the UFC instead of running to a lower weight class as far away from Cyborg as she could to crush cans.

Let's face it, you can't give Cyborg shit for not cutting weight (not as easy as you claim for everybody) and going to another promotion if you refuse to give Ronda shit for not just nutting up and making the biggest women's fight of all time happen when she had the chance. She was the #1 contender for Cyborgs belt. Look at the reality of it, she went to the UFC while she still looked unbeatable. You can't bash Cyborg while pretending Rousey is above the criticism unless you want to look like you hold Uncle Dana's pocket.

Ronda moved to Bantam to face Meisha Tate, and she wasn't the number one at the time when she made the move. There wasn't even a mumble about the Rousey/Cyborg fight until a year after Ronda had won the Bantamweight title from Tate. Not to mention that the freaking Featherweight title was vacated because of Cyborgs positive test and she was suspended............ So how exactly was Ronda supposed to fight her at that time? After Cyborgs ban she chose to stay at 145 and fight with another promotion rather then lose the weight and follow the herd to UFC. UFC made the call to nix the 145 division because there was simply more talent in the 135 class. I never denied they were in the same promotion, the timeline however never dictated a chance for them to meet up. This wasn't because one fighter was ducking the other. A vacated title, then a promotion takeover lead the path to where we are now. Ronda never tested positive and got a year long ban, she chose to stay with the Strikeforce/UFC promotion and stay at Bantanweight. When Strikeforce was bought out by UFC it was already common knowledge that they were only keeping one female weight division initially. Dana made that pretty clear. Your claim that Rousey was dodging Cyborg is just bogus.

(08-04-2015, 11:53 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Ronda moved to Bantam to face Meisha Tate, and she wasn't the number one at the time when she made the move. There wasn't even a mumble about the Rousey/Cyborg fight until a year after Ronda had won the Bantamweight title from Tate. Not to mention that the freaking Featherweight title was vacated because of Cyborgs positive test and she was suspended............ So how exactly was Ronda supposed to fight her at that time? After Cyborgs ban she chose to stay at 145 and fight with another promotion rather then lose the weight and follow the herd to UFC. UFC made the call to nix the 145 division because there was simply more talent in the 135 class. I never denied they were in the same promotion, the timeline however never dictated a chance for them to meet up. This wasn't because one fighter was ducking the other. A vacated title, then a promotion takeover lead the path to where we are now. Ronda never tested positive and got a year long ban, she chose to stay with the Strikeforce/UFC promotion and stay at Bantanweight. When Strikeforce was bought out by UFC it was already common knowledge that they were only keeping one female weight division initially. Dana made that pretty clear. Your claim that Rousey was dodging Cyborg is just bogus.

Did Dana tell you that?

Facts:

Ronda was in the same promotion as Cyborg.
Ronda was in the same weight class as Cyborg.
Ronda moved down to a lower weight class.
Cyborg has problems cutting weight (complete speculation on your part that it's due to juicing). Ronda knows this about Cyborg, it's widely known that she walks around heavy and has a tough enough time cutting to 145.
Sometime after winning a belt at a lower weight class, she publicly brought up Cyborg and said that the fight MUST take place at 135 and she won't fight her at 145.

Therefore, my logical conclusion is that Ronda ducked Cyborg. I don't see how you can really spin it any other way. Both have proven they can fight at 145, Ronda refuses to fight Cyborg unless it's at a weight that Cyborg either can't make or will have trouble transitioning to.

It would be like a natural middleweight calling out a guy that's a bigger LHW knowing that he'd have an almost impossible time making the cut to 185. If you side with Dana and Ronda on this one, that's on your whacked UFC-hugger logic.

Is Cyborg the one that should come to Ronda now if she wants the fight? Sure. But to claim Ronda never ducked her to begin with is asinine.

(08-04-2015, 12:57 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Did Dana tell you that?

Facts:

Ronda was in the same promotion as Cyborg.
Ronda was in the same weight class as Cyborg.
Ronda moved down to a lower weight class.
Cyborg has problems cutting weight (complete speculation on your part that it's due to juicing). Ronda knows this about Cyborg, it's widely known that she walks around heavy and has a tough enough time cutting to 145.
Sometime after winning a belt at a lower weight class, she publicly brought up Cyborg and said that the fight MUST take place at 135 and she won't fight her at 145.

Therefore, my logical conclusion is that Ronda ducked Cyborg. I don't see how you can really spin it any other way. Both have proven they can fight at 145, Ronda refuses to fight Cyborg unless it's at a weight that Cyborg either can't make or will have trouble transitioning to.

It would be like a natural middleweight calling out a guy that's a bigger LHW knowing that he'd have an almost impossible time making the cut to 185. If you side with Dana and Ronda on this one, that's on your whacked UFC-hugger logic.

Is Cyborg the one that should come to Ronda now if she wants the fight? Sure. But to claim Ronda never ducked her to begin with is asinine.

 Your logic is flawed, but that's ok now that your man crush on Cyborg is obvious.

(08-04-2015, 01:17 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote:  Your logic is flawed, but that's ok now that your man crush on Cyborg is obvious.

Not a Cyborg fan, she just happens to be very, very good.

Nice job showing why my logic is so "flawed", great arguments you have there

I posted a bunch of facts with a logical conclusion, how can you possibly draw up anything but Ronda ducking Cyborg at least once in their careers? She had plenty of opportunity to make the fight happen when they were both in the same organization. Ronda moved down and publicly stated that she would only fight Cyborg at 135 (which everybody know she would have a tough time making that cut).

What isn't true about any of that?

(08-04-2015, 11:21 AM)Benton Wrote: It could. But for a fighter in general, 10 pounds difference is a bit of an advantage. For a woman, even more so. 

In this particular case, Rousey has made public comments twice that she wants to fight Cris on an even playing field, ie, not with several extra pounds of muscle she got by juicing.

If they fought at 140, Rousey would only be going up five pounds and Cyborg would still have to do some cutting.  I think if Rousey REALLY wanted the fight, she could demand it and force Dana White's hand.

I think Dana is afraid of having his biggest draw getting knocked out and losing all those PPV buys.  

(08-04-2015, 01:47 PM)nevergonnachange Wrote: If they fought at 140, Rousey would only be going up five pounds and Cyborg would still have to do some cutting.  I think if Rousey REALLY wanted the fight, she could demand it and force Dana White's hand.

I think Dana is afraid of having his biggest draw getting knocked out and losing all those PPV buys.  

To the first, agreed, but Rousey's deal seems to be more with not wanting to have to put on weight, and at the same time wanting Cris to shed the 'roid weight. So far, both have said they wanted it, but only on their own terms. Cris won't go down because, according to her, doctors won't let her drop 10 pounds and Rousey won't go up because she doesn't want to have to move up a class for a fight.

To the second, I dunno. If she keeps having 30 second KOs, people are going to start getting bored. 

(08-04-2015, 01:57 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first, agreed, but Rousey's deal seems to be more with not wanting to have to put on weight, and at the same time wanting Cris to shed the 'roid weight. So far, both have said they wanted it, but only on their own terms. Cris won't go down because, according to her, doctors won't let her drop 10 pounds and Rousey won't go up because she doesn't want to have to move up a class for a fight.

To the second, I dunno. If she keeps having 30 second KOs, people are going to start getting bored. 

They both want the fight on their own terms, but one of them is clearly more realistic than the other.

Ronda has fought at FW, she's capable of it and that's a fact.

Cyborg has never fought at 135 and has a hard enough time making the cut to feather.

Cristiane has failed one test in her life, and has passed everything they've thrown at her over the last 4 years since. It gets really old hearing how she can't cut due to steroids. People can't handle seeing a woman in great shape without assuming she's constantly juicing.

(08-04-2015, 01:57 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first, agreed, but Rousey's deal seems to be more with not wanting to have to put on weight, and at the same time wanting Cris to shed the 'roid weight. So far, both have said they wanted it, but only on their own terms. Cris won't go down because, according to her, doctors won't let her drop 10 pounds and Rousey won't go up because she doesn't want to have to move up a class for a fight.

To the second, I dunno. If she keeps having 30 second KOs, people are going to start getting bored. 

I 100% agree with this.  The UFC is going to have to stop having her be the Main Event fight in a PPV.  Until she starts getting better competition.

(08-04-2015, 03:10 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: I 100% agree with this.  The UFC is going to have to stop having her be the Main Event fight in a PPV.  Until she starts getting better competition.

I'm already bored.  Make her fight a small man.

(08-04-2015, 01:35 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Not a Cyborg fan, she just happens to be very, very good.

Nice job showing why my logic is so "flawed", great arguments you have there

I posted a bunch of facts with a logical conclusion, how can you possibly draw up anything but Ronda ducking Cyborg at least once in their careers? She had plenty of opportunity to make the fight happen when they were both in the same organization. Ronda moved down and publicly stated that she would only fight Cyborg at 135 (which everybody know she would have a tough time making that cut).

What isn't true about any of that?

So you're telling me that the only opportune time during both of these fighters careers to face each other is during a Santos suspension? How does that work out? In the back alley some where or in some parking lot? Dude do you understand how card booking works? You stated a bunch of obvious facts... Yes they fought at the same weight at one point, when Rousey had just started in Strikeforce. Ronda won two fights, moved up in the 145 rankings, then Santos popped for PED's, which left us with a vacated title. So Ronda moved down to face Meisha Tate and won the 135 title. During this time frame UFC bought out Strikeforce, and it was already announce that they were only going to proceed with the 135 Bantamweight class (they then decided to keep Flyweight). So what youre saying is that after immediately after Ronda's last 145 bout she was supposed to fight Cyborg, and because she didn't that fight a month or so after her last then she's ducking.

Direct quote from Coker in June 2012

"I think [a bout between Ronda and Cyborg] is gonna be inevitable. I think that fight will happen at some point. We're just waiting for Cyborg to get off her suspension, but that conversation will happen once she's back and ready to fight because her and Ronda at 135, I mean, that might be the highest rated show on Showtime for the year or for the past fights we've done."

So this was on the Strikeforce time table after Cyborg's suspension. A time at which a buyout occurred and a entire weight class was dropped. How again is this ducking on Ronda's behalf?

A positive PED test/suspension
Corporate buyout
and a change within the Womens division are what prevented this fight.

Neither fighter ducked each other at that point. Cyborg is experiencing success at 145 and Ronda is at 135. If this fight ever happens it will be at 135, why? Because UFC doesn't have a 145 and if all parties involved want to make the amount of money that can be made from this fight it will happen on a UFC card, that means its on Cyborg to take the necessary steps to make it happen, NOT RONDA. Your ducking accusation is just dumb man.... It never happened, if you have a problem with Rousey it cant be with her ducking any fights with anyone, because she never has. Is Ronda supposed to vacate her belt, demand Dana sign a bunch of 145 females to add the Featherweight class just so she can fight Cyborg? Is this how things are supposed to work?

The current state of this Cyborg/Rousey thing is beyond stupid.. People have made Ronda into the uber successful, villain who sits atop a throne guarded by Dana, and Cyborg is lowly underdog getting roadblock after roadblock thrown at her to make this fight happen. Naturally people like to root for the underdog so they side with Cyborg without having a clue of the reason why this is where we are currently with this fight. People don't realize that without a Cyborg PED suspension back in 2012 this fight might have happened. Cyborg is a great fighter and im willing to bet that Dana was torn between her and Rousey as the front runners for the Womens division of UFC, but then Cyborg tested positive which made the choice easy.

That stuff all happened, but you just can't try to tell me that there was no possible way and no possible time the two could have fought and can't fight in the near future.

Ronda didn't want it to happen more than you're willing to admit.

(08-04-2015, 06:38 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That stuff all happened, but you just can't try to tell me that there was no possible way and no possible time the two could have fought and can't fight in the near future.

Ronda didn't want it to happen more than you're willing to admit.

There probably was a small window in which they could have fought, but then you're asking one of the two to make a small training camp which would put them at a disadvantage. It takes a few months for them to get fight ready, they just can't turn around with one fight after another. That kind of wear and tear on the body would guarantee a short professional career.

(08-04-2015, 07:46 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: There probably was a small window in which they could have fought, but then you're asking one of the two to make a small training camp which would put them at a disadvantage. It takes a few months for them to get fight ready, they just can't turn around with one fight after another. That kind of wear and tear on the body would guarantee a short professional career.

OK, Rousey fought last weekend and Santos fought, what about 6 weeks ago?  Their next fight could easily be against each other.  Make the fight at 140, no titles just the two baddest women around and see who is best.  UFC doesn't want that because if Rousey loses, they don't have the baddest woman on the planet, they have the baddest 135 lb fighter in the UFC

(08-05-2015, 08:54 AM)nevergonnachange Wrote: OK, Rousey fought last weekend and Santos fought, what about 6 weeks ago?  Their next fight could easily be against each other.  Make the fight at 140, no titles just the two baddest women around and see who is best.  UFC doesn't want that because if Rousey loses, they don't have the baddest woman on the planet, they have the baddest 135 lb fighter in the UFC

Lol ok... You do realize that Cyborg fights at 145, but normally walks around at 170-175. Same can be said for Ronda, she's probably put on 10-15 pounds already since her fight a few days ago. She weighed in at 135, and im willing to bet when she stepped in the ring on Saturday night she was well above 140. Hate on Ronda all you want but she is the P4P best fighter in MMA. A catchweight fight at 140 is the only way forward to getting these two in the ring.

(08-05-2015, 09:25 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Hate on Ronda all you want but she is the P4P best fighter in MMA.

And this is where things are getting absolutely ridiculous again. You can't claim to not be a blind UFC/Ronda nuthugger and then come out with shit like this.

Ronda shouldn't be on any (male) P4P list. It's just complete garbage.

Is she the P4P best in WMMA? I don't know, quite possibly, either 1 or 2 for sure.

Is she the P4P best in MMA? No, stop.

(08-05-2015, 09:29 AM)djs7685 Wrote: And this is where things are getting absolutely ridiculous again. You can't claim to not be a blind UFC/Ronda nuthugger and then come out with shit like this.

Ronda shouldn't be on any (male) P4P list. It's just complete garbage.

Is she the P4P best in WMMA? I don't know, quite possibly, either 1 or 2 for sure.

Is she the P4P best in MMA? No, stop.

P4P isn't a ranking that states a certain fighter could beat all others regardless of weight class. Its the fighter who performs the best over all the classes. You honestly think that Rousey could beat a Weidman, Dillishaw, or McGregor. Rousey has been dominating her division and is the biggest draw in MMA, so she deserves the P4P title. As trivial as the title is. You can not like her, but you cant deny that Ronda (with assistance from the UFC machine) is becoming the new face of the MMA sport. Hate it all you want but UFC drives the MMA sport, combat sports goes as UFC goes. The same way with profootball, baseball, and basketball, one major organization dictates the path of that sport. On an individual level I don't get all the hate for Ronda, it seems really petty if you ask me. I will throw my support behind any American fighter, especially ones who represented our country in the Olympics. Come to think of it I cant see a reason why to hate the UFC either, I mean this is a business that brings in millions of international dollars into the American economy monthly. Why would you hate that?

(08-05-2015, 09:25 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Lol ok... You do realize that Cyborg fights at 145, but normally walks around at 170-175. Same can be said for Ronda, she's probably put on 10-15 pounds already since her fight a few days ago. She weighed in at 135, and im willing to bet when she stepped in the ring on Saturday night she was well above 140. Hate on Ronda all you want but she is the P4P best fighter in MMA. A catchweight fight at 140 is the only way forward to getting these two in the ring.

Yeah, that's why I said to make the fight at 140.  Not so sure what's funny about what I said.  If you think I mean the fight should be on the next PPV, you misread what I wrote.

(08-05-2015, 10:04 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: P4P isn't a ranking that states a certain fighter could beat all others regardless of weight class. Its the fighter who performs the best over all the classes. You honestly think that Rousey could beat a Weidman, Dillishaw, or McGregor. Rousey has been dominating her division and is the biggest draw in MMA, so she deserves the P4P title. As trivial as the title is. You can not like her, but you cant deny that Ronda (with assistance from the UFC machine) is becoming the new face of the MMA sport. Hate it all you want but UFC drives the MMA sport, combat sports goes as UFC goes. The same way with profootball, baseball, and basketball, one major organization dictates the path of that sport. On an individual level I don't get all the hate for Ronda, it seems really petty if you ask me. I will throw my support behind any American fighter, especially ones who represented our country in the Olympics. Come to think of it I cant see a reason why to hate the UFC either, I mean this is a business that brings in millions of international dollars into the American economy monthly. Why would you hate that?

I'm not so sure that you understand what P4P means.

P4P lists are talking purely of a fighters skillset regardless of weight class. It's a lot of hypotheticals, hence opinion, but at the end of the day there is NO WAY Ronda should be on a male P4P list. Women's? Absolutely! But they 100% need their own list. Are you going to put someone from the WNBA onto a P4P list (if there was one) of NBA players? I highly, highly doubt it.

P4P is saying that if Cain were to hypothetically weigh enough to cut to MW, would he beat Anderson Silva? If it seems like he would win that hypothetical situation, then you put him higher. I don't know where you got your made up definition of P4P, but it's been an MMA thing for decades and has meant the same thing throughout. Did you get your made up new definition from the UFC? If so, they didn't invent P4P, so I'd probably not look there for the real terminology meaning.

A 135 pound Cain would kill Ronda. A 135 pound GSP would destroy Ronda. A 135 pound Weidman would win however he wanted against Ronda. Hell, Dillashaw does fight at 135 and would potentially, literally murder Ronda in the cage.

I don't think pound for pound means what you think it means. There absolutely needs to be a separate category for WMMA if you're going to rank the fighters like that.

(08-05-2015, 10:20 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I'm not so sure that you understand what P4P means.

P4P lists are talking purely of a fighters skillset regardless of weight class. It's a lot of hypotheticals, hence opinion, but at the end of the day there is NO WAY Ronda should be on a male P4P list. Women's? Absolutely! But they 100% need their own list. Are you going to put someone from the WNBA onto a P4P list (if there was one) of NBA players? I highly, highly doubt it.

P4P is saying that if Cain were to hypothetically weigh enough to cut to MW, would he beat Anderson Silva? If it seems like he would win that hypothetical situation, then you put him higher. I don't know where you got your made up definition of P4P, but it's been an MMA thing for decades and has meant the same thing throughout. Did you get your made up new definition from the UFC? If so, they didn't invent P4P, so I'd probably not look there for the real terminology meaning.

A 135 pound Cain would kill Ronda. A 135 pound GSP would destroy Ronda. A 135 pound Weidman would win however he wanted against Ronda. Hell, Dillashaw does fight at 135 and would potentially, literally murder Ronda in the cage.

I don't think pound for pound means what you think it means. There absolutely needs to be a separate category for WMMA if you're going to rank the fighters like that.

Well since there is only two weight classes in UFC, its kind of hard to separate between males and females. Most people should know that this list is basically a selling point, no one really thinks that Anderson Silva would actually put on 20lbs and fight Cain, or vice versa. Its just a way for the UFC to say " Hey this is our horse at the moment, this is who is bringing in the money." P4P lists can mean anything in any of the sports that use weight classes, winning streaks, title defenses, and quality of matches probably all go into determining this person.

(08-05-2015, 10:31 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Well since there is only two weight classes in UFC, its kind of hard to separate between males and females. Most people should know that this list is basically a selling point, no one really thinks that Anderson Silva would actually put on 20lbs and fight Cain, or vice versa. Its just a way for the UFC to say " Hey this is our horse at the moment, this is who is bringing in the money." P4P lists can mean anything in any of the sports that use weight classes, winning streaks, title defenses, and quality of matches probably all go into determining this person.

Of course Werdum isn't cutting his legs off to fight Aldo, but that's where the hypotheticals come into an actual P4P list. Would Aldo's skillset be able to hang with Werdum if they weighed the exact same amount? I don't think so personally, but I'm sure there can be arguments for both sides and a good debate could come of it.

There's no real good argument that Ronda belongs with the top dogs of the P4P rankings. There isn't a parallel universe where she has the skillset to beat average male fighters at BW already, let alone the current P4P greats.

Ronda belongs in the same rankings as male MMA fighters in the same sense that Lisa Leslie deserved to be on the list of best basketball players when she was a star in the WNBA.

Isn't Ronda being one of, possibly THE best women's fighter enough for her huge supporters? Why does she need to be on a P4P list to make some happy? She doesn't belong.