(05-19-2017, 12:08 AM)McC Wrote: No doubt there's a coaching problem.  But who is out there on the field?   Block your f ing man.  Catch the f ing ball.  Don't fumble.  Tackle the guy with the f ing ball.  It always comes down to the guys on the field.   It's in their hands.  Players have to make plays.
 
If I've lost five straight playoff games, how do I dare blame anyone else but me?  And if I'm one of the so called leaders of the team, isn't the culture what I'm supposed to be leading?

How the hell is Marvin making 47 guys collectively and simultaneously freak out?  It defies logic.

Welllllllll......Marv lost two playoff games before these current guys came around....and choked in primetime.....and lost to the Stoolers.  It does defy logic, but by that same token, it defies logic to say that we are constantly drafting choke artist players.  There's one constant here....actually four.

(05-18-2017, 11:04 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: so you're telling me that Peko saying the culture in the Bengals locker is solely focused on winning a (single) playoff game? BS. total BS. It's sour grapes is what it is.

No. No it isn't.

First of all, he didn't say that "the Bengals locker is solely focused". So, you reading it that way is sour grapes and putting words in the guy's mouth. Sour grapes over what, I have no idea. People just look for the negative in anything these days. Peko's character is outstanding. He never badmouthed or had anything negative to say while he was a Bengal. He left the same way he came in. Class act.


I'm certain that the Bengals overall, as an organization, have their eyes on a Superbowl, but players know they have to learn to win in the playoffs and they haven't yet. They have to learn to walk before they can run and the players know this. Denver's players already have done that part.

So, what he was referring to in the context of the quote was the culture of the players in the locker room in Denver talking about winning another championship while the players in the Bengals locker room are still talking about getting that first playoff win. Peko verbalizing that doesn't make it any more or less true. It's an honest, truthful observation.

^ THAT is more than likely 100% true. Neither you nor I are in the Bengals locker room, but I don't see Peko as a liar or a sour grapes kind of guy at all. It's what most of the Bengals players reference in interviews... Getting that 1st playoff win out of the way. That is almost literally the main thing everyone is asked and that they say during interviews. Paraphrasing the average interview: "Yeah, we have our eyes on the Superbowl, but we have to get that first playoff win out of the way."

(05-19-2017, 12:08 AM)McC Wrote: No doubt there's a coaching problem.  But who is out there on the field?   Block your f ing man.  Catch the f ing ball.  Don't fumble.  Tackle the guy with the f ing ball.  It always comes down to the guys on the field.   It's in their hands.  Players have to make plays.
 
If I've lost five straight playoff games, how do I dare blame anyone else but me?  And if I'm one of the so called leaders of the team, isn't the culture what I'm supposed to be leading?

How the hell is Marvin making 47 guys collectively and simultaneously freak out?  It defies logic.

I agree with you  to a point. But I also have a counter point...

Football is a Coach's sport. Coaches can tense up, out think themselves, and make poor decisions. They are moving chess pieces around against each other in football. Some coaches might be better suited for checkers (Marvin?).

Personal story on why I feel like it isn't always the players....

I played on soccer teams growing up and semi-professionally that were ultra competitive. For nearly 30 years our high school team was and is always top 10 ranked in the state of Ohio and is one of if not (I believe) THE winningest sports program (boys or girls and irregardless of sport) in Ohio high school history - and our club team in the Spring seasons traveled and we played and did well against guys who were stars on the US National Team for years. Our high school coach was a 4 year temporary coach where he had been an assistant and had to step in for the coach that had been there for 10 years previous. The normal coach had a daughter in my grade who was an amazing soccer player in her own right and he stepped down so he could make all of her games - I have always respected him tremendously for that. As a result, my 4 years we got a late 20's assistant as the HC. he had never been an HC before, but had the highest licenses (National Team grade) to do so.

Our 4 year interim coach got so nervous before big games he would start changing people around and coming up with insane tactics like, 15 minutes before we would go out there. Against our biggest and only significant rival, instead of playing to our strengths he would always try to play to their perceived weaknesses. It was awful to try and work through as a player. We all did what we were told, but to this day when we all get together almost 29 years later (we are all very close)... we talk about how much we hate what he did and how bad he was.


Soccer isn't really a coaches sport, either, so I can only imagine what would happen with a football coach like that. No other sport even comes close to rivaling football when it comes to a coach having influence over the game. When I watch the Bengals on prime time, bigger games against top teams, and the playoffs I see a different team than normal Sundays. Something is clearly changing during those weeks and it's not on the player's side.

(05-19-2017, 09:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: No. No it isn't.

First of all, he didn't say that "the Bengals locker is solely focused". So, you reading it that way is sour grapes and putting words in the guy's mouth. Sour grapes over what, I have no idea. People just look for the negative in anything these days. Peko's character is outstanding. He never badmouthed or had anything negative to say while he was a Bengal. He left the same way he came in. Class act.


I'm certain that the Bengals overall, as an organization, have their eyes on a Superbowl, but players know they have to learn to win in the playoffs and they haven't yet. They have to learn to walk before they can run and the players know this. Denver's players already have done that part.

So, what he was referring to in the context of the quote was the culture of the players in the locker room in Denver talking about winning another championship while the players in the Bengals locker room are still talking about getting that first playoff win. Peko verbalizing that doesn't make it any more or less true. It's an honest, truthful observation.

^ THAT is more than likely 100% true. Neither you nor I are in the Bengals locker room, but I don't see Peko as a liar or a sour grapes kind of guy at all. It's what most of the Bengals players reference in interviews... Getting that 1st playoff win out of the way. That is almost literally the main thing everyone is asked and that they say during interviews. Paraphrasing the average interview: "Yeah, we have our eyes on the Superbowl, but we have to get that first playoff win out of the way."

Sour grapes they didn't re-sign him? The bolded is also contradictory statement BTW. Players answer those playoff questions because the media and us fans are so gung-ho over it (right and wrongfully so). It doesn't mean what-so-ever that the players have this mentality. If they did, it would absolutely blow my mind that professional athletes would think this way. It's a very long stretch, and he since he said it after being let go by us, I don't know how you can not see this as sour grapes.  

As I said in my next reply, I don't question the players (or coaches) motive to win a SB at all. I question the approach in those playoff games. Two totally different things. One is a lack of desire, and the other is a lacking in a philosophical sense. You can adjust/change the latter...but you it's almost impossible to change a quitters attitude into that of a winner. 

And lastly, please stop acting like we're attacking this guy's character. We're debating something he said about his former team.  

(05-19-2017, 10:28 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I agree with you  to a point. But I also have a counter point...

Football is a Coach's sport. Coaches can tense up, out think themselves, and make poor decisions. They are moving chess pieces around against each other in football. Some coaches might be better suited for checkers (Marvin?).

Personal story on why I feel like it isn't always the players....

I played on soccer teams growing up and semi-professionally that were ultra competitive. For nearly 30 years our high school team was and is always top 10 ranked in the state of Ohio and is one of if not (I believe) THE winningest sports program (boys or girls and irregardless of sport) in Ohio high school history - and our club team in the Spring seasons traveled and we played and did well against guys who were stars on the US National Team for years. Our high school coach was a 4 year temporary coach where he had been an assistant and had to step in for the coach that had been there for 10 years previous. The normal coach had a daughter in my grade who was an amazing soccer player in her own right and he stepped down so he could make all of her games - I have always respected him tremendously for that. As a result, my 4 years we got a late 20's assistant as the HC. he had never been an HC before, but had the highest licenses (National Team grade) to do so.

Our 4 year interim coach got so nervous before big games he would start changing people around and coming up with insane tactics like, 15 minutes before we would go out there. Against our biggest and only significant rival, instead of playing to our strengths he would always try to play to their perceived weaknesses. It was awful to try and work through as a player. We all did what we were told, but to this day when we all get together almost 29 years later (we are all very close)... we talk about how much we hate what he did and how bad he was.


Soccer isn't really a coaches sport, either, so I can only imagine what would happen with a football coach like that. No other sport even comes close to rivaling football when it comes to a coach having influence over the game. When I watch the Bengals on prime time, bigger games against top teams, and the playoffs I see a different team than normal Sundays. Something is clearly changing during those weeks and it's not on the player's side.

I have often thought the samething, that Marvin's biggest downfall going into the playoffs, is he tries to outsmart himself.  You look back and they don't look like the same team playing that 1st playoff game.  To be fair though, the last 2 games we didin't have our QB or our top 2 WRs against the Colts.

(05-19-2017, 11:49 AM)sandwedge Wrote: I have often thought the samething, that Marvin's biggest downfall going into the playoffs, is he tries to outsmart himself.  You look back and they don't look like the same team playing that 1st playoff game.  To be fair though, the last 2 games we didin't have our QB or our top 2 WRs against the Colts.

The Steelers game was no excuse, IMO. And the crown jewel example of Marvin's failures. He struggles to coach in and through the big moment.

And even though McCarron didn't put up big numbers, he was the opposite of Andy that game in comparison to Andy's last Playoff game against the Chargers. McCarron hung in there and didn't lose it. He hung with it, didn't make a string of bad plays, and made the big play when it mattered. Hill is the one who filled his pants and lost it, IMO.

I've read some fans on here bring up McCarron not playing well. The condistions were so bad that the HOF QB on the other side had just as awful a game. Only, McCarron got better or at least steadier as the game progressed and Ben started to fold.

Again, though, and to the point... The coach didn't have control of his team and a series of mental errors caused the collapse. It wasn't one guy having a mental error (fumble and fighting for yards over securing another down). Or one penalty (Burfict). It was a string of several mental errors. THAT'S COACHING. 100% ill prepared, mental breakdowns, and poor COACHING at the end of that game.

And, yes, the Colts playoff game was a complete throw away. Nobody to blame there at all.

(05-19-2017, 11:21 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Sour grapes they didn't re-sign him? The bolded is also contradictory statement BTW. Players answer those playoff questions because the media and us fans are so gung-ho over it (right and wrongfully so). It doesn't mean what-so-ever that the players have this mentality. If they did, it would absolutely blow my mind that professional athletes would think this way. It's a very long stretch, and he since he said it after being let go by us, I don't know how you can not see this as sour grapes.  

As I said in my next reply, I don't question the players (or coaches) motive to win a SB at all. I question the approach in those playoff games. Two totally different things. One is a lack of desire, and the other is a lacking in a philosophical sense. You can adjust/change the latter...but you it's almost impossible to change a quitters attitude into that of a winner. 

And lastly, please stop acting like we're attacking this guy's character. We're debating something he said about his former team.  

- No way is he crying sour grapes the Bengals didn't resign him. What J-Joe said is sour grapes. Complaining about petty things like amenities, Gatorade levels, soap, etc? THAT'S sour grapes.

- No, that's not contradictory at all. Maybe if you view the world in black and white. But that's not reality. This group of Bengals can have the desire and overall goal of winning a Superbowl, but they also haven't won even a single playoff game - despite 5 attempts. So to be focused on learning how to win at that level and to get over the hump, so to speak, is still in line and not contradictory to their overall goal of a championship. For the core players in the locker room to just spout off about goals of winning a Superbowl without having won even one playoff game would be like bragging about how you're going to win a NASCAR Cup as a driver one day after failing getting your drivers license 5 straight times. Only a wannabe dumbass would spout off goals like that without managing to complete even one step towards the goal while having failed that much when attempting.

- Peko wasn't cut or let go in any embarrassing fashion. He was an unrestricted free agent and he chose to sign for more money in Denver. He's never ever been negative towards anything Bengals. There's no evidence of him having ill feelings. He got paid a bunch of money from another team. He's not upset.

- I too think that the approach is different in the playoffs or big games. I don't think the team quits at all. I just think that their general (HC) clinches his butt a little tight, so to speak. he plays not to lose instead of playing to win. The players are extensions of that.

- Insinuating that Domata Peko is bad mouthing the Bengals and crying sour grapes, and talkign out of school IS insulting his character. To give a public interview where he purposefully casts his former employer and teammates in a negative light would, indeed, be of poor character.

Contrasting examples: What J-Joe said publicly, true or not, WAS sour grapes and of poor character. There is no comparison in any way. Not in substance nor in tone between what Jonathan Joseph said and what Domata Peko said.

And, look, we can agree to disagree. There's no harm in that.

(05-19-2017, 12:08 AM)McC Wrote: No doubt there's a coaching problem.  But who is out there on the field?   Block your f ing man.  Catch the f ing ball.  Don't fumble.  Tackle the guy with the f ing ball.  It always comes down to the guys on the field.   It's in their hands.  Players have to make plays.
 
If I've lost five straight playoff games, how do I dare blame anyone else but me?  And if I'm one of the so called leaders of the team, isn't the culture what I'm supposed to be leading?

How the hell is Marvin making 47 guys collectively and simultaneously freak out?  It defies logic.

I think it's indeed organizational culture. If you put a lot of emphasis on how you haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years and how you are bad in Primetime games...it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Whether they do this directly or indirectly...it's real.

(05-19-2017, 01:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think it's indeed organizational culture. If you put a lot of emphasis on how you haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years and how you are bad in Primetime games...it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Whether they do this directly or indirectly...it's real.

Its all in the mind, the mind...

Peko was a big reason our run defense sucked in a lot of those playoff loses

(05-19-2017, 02:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Its all in the mind, the mind...

(05-18-2017, 11:04 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: so you're telling me that Peko saying the culture in the Bengals locker is solely focused on winning a (single) playoff game? BS. total BS. It's sour grapes is what it is.

Idk man, I can see where winning a playoff game would be heavy on the minds of these players.

(05-19-2017, 08:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You would onlt have a point if every single player that came through here whined and ran away.  But they don't.  We have a lot of very reputable players who love to play here. 

Most players that spend time with the Bengals don't say anything bad, but in the NFL, players are discouraged from speaking out negatively against teams. I think it's safe to say it seems we've had an unusually large amount of former players that have spoken out. The inevitable questions to that are "why" and "are there more who are disgruntled and are just remaining silent".

It's probable that the vast majority of players are happy with the Bengals, but if a handful of players are upset enough to speak out, that in itself is a problem.

(05-19-2017, 07:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Idk man, I can see where winning a playoff game would be heavy on the minds of these players.


Most players that spend time with the Bengals don't say anything bad, but in the NFL, players are discouraged from speaking out negatively against teams. I think it's safe to say it seems we've had an unusually large amount of former players that have spoken out. The inevitable questions to that are "why" and "are there more who are disgruntled and are just remaining silent".

It's probable that the vast majority of players are happy with the Bengals, but if a handful of players are upset enough to speak out, that in itself is a problem.

Dunlap was wondering about the plan when we let Whit and Zeit go.

But we couldn't pay those guys what they got anyways. But if there was a player that could talk a little it is a guy like Dunlap
who is a very good player. He hasn't been lights out in the Playoffs though either which is the culture.

The culture bro.

(05-19-2017, 08:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Dunlap was wondering about the plan when we let Whit and Zeit go.

But we couldn't pay those guys what they got anyways. But if there was a player that could talk a little it is a guy like Dunlap
who is a very good player. He hasn't been lights out in the Playoffs though either which is the culture.

The culture bro.

I agree with the Bengals letting Zeitler and Whit walk at those prices/lengths. That said, I did not like how we didn't go after some kind of veteran insurance for Ogbuehi. Winston isn't enough. Plus we saved all that money we were planning on giving to Whit. Where did it go? Minter was cheap and basically replaced Maualuga's salary. 

The draft was awesome, but free agency was a giant Mike Brown poop fest.

(05-19-2017, 08:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree with the Bengals letting Zeitler and Whit walk at those prices/lengths. That said, I did not like how we didn't go after some kind of veteran insurance for Ogbuehi. Winston isn't enough. Plus we saved all that money we were planning on giving to Whit. Where did it go? Minter was cheap and basically replaced Maualuga's salary. 

The draft was awesome, but free agency was a giant Mike Brown poop fest.

Thought we should of gave Whit the Franchise tag at the very least but that would of prevented him from getting
that huge deal in LA. He might of even talked about MB about this i don't know and MB as we know treats his guys
well but you are completely correct. FA blew, loved getting Minter but we should of got atleast some insurance in
case Og continues to suck it up.

I do like Landon Lechler but he is an UDFA with no NFL experience.

My guess is Fisher is the fall back at LT if Og blowz and Andre moves to RT where the best man wins RG out.

Just have to hope Og plays well, continuity and chemistry is the biggest deal with Offensive Lines.

(05-19-2017, 08:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The draft was awesome, but free agency was a giant Mike Brown poop fest.

Isn't it always?

(05-19-2017, 08:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thought we should of gave Whit the Franchise tag at the very least but that would of prevented him from getting
that huge deal in LA. He might of even talked about MB about this i don't know and MB as we know treats his guys
well but you are completely correct. FA blew, loved getting Minter but we should of got atleast some insurance in
case Og continues to suck it up.

I do like Landon Lechler but he is an UDFA with no NFL experience.

My guess is Fisher is the fall back at LT if Og blowz and Andre moves to RT where the best man wins RG out.

Just have to hope Og plays well, continuity and chemistry is the biggest deal with Offensive Lines.

Franchise tag is not always good for player morale. That can lead to wasted money on an unhappy player if he doesn't want to be here anymore.

(05-19-2017, 09:43 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Isn't it always?

It is, but the last couple years were bad even by Bengals standards. Usually in the past, when we lost good players we at least tried to sign a decent replacement. Think Lavernues Coles replacing Housh. Odom replacing Justin Smith. Nate Clements replacing JJo. Last year we got LaFell to replace MLJ. This year we just let 2 key o-linemen walk without doing anything with the money saved. That's bad even for Mike.

(05-19-2017, 07:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Idk man, I can see where winning a playoff game would be heavy on the minds of these players.

I'm sure it is, but they better have their goal and attitude set to winning a Super Bowl. I mean every single team in the league believes they can before the season starts. Why are some thinking the Bengals are the lone team to think they're also not driven to win one? I mean Hue even said the goal was to win a SB. Cmon we're so jaded we think our guys are a bunch of prima donas. These guys have tons of pride and drive. Just got to find the right formula for success which is from the top down.

(05-19-2017, 10:46 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I'm sure it is, but they better have their goal and attitude set to winning a Super Bowl. I mean every single team in the league believes they can before the season starts. Why are some thinking the Bengals are the lone team to think they're also not driven to win one? I mean Hue even said the goal was to win a SB. Cmon we're so jaded we think our guys are a bunch of prima donas. These guys have tons of pride and drive. Just got to find the right formula for success which is from the top down.

Players yes. Mike Brown? Meh.