(06-12-2017, 07:06 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If he has a Kurt Warner like season where he goes off and carries the team to the Super Bowl and is named the MVP then I could see this discussion coming up. The guy flat out has talent but was held back by injury, some less than stellar coaching (damn you Brat!!!) and of course never really winning the big one. Another example of what if and should have been, place him on a different team from the word go (Pack, Pats, Broncos, Falcons, etc) and I'd bet he'd be a first ballot HoFer.

Don't blame Brat.

I firmly believe that Marvin wanted Brat to bring in the reigns on offense between 2007 and 2008. Marvin said during a press conference he wanted to "blow it all up" and start anew... I logically assumed he was just talking about overhauling Chuck Bresnahan's putrid defense, but clearly he wanted complete change on both sides of the ball. 

Marvin is obviously a defensive minded coach, and there's plenty of evidence out there that he likes what I call "outdated football". Case in point: the 2009 game we won at Pittsburgh to clinch the AFC north. It was one of the ugliest offensive performances I've ever seen. Our only TD came from a Bernard Scott kickoff return and Shayne Graham made something like 6 or 7 field goals to win it. The game came down to a failed fourth down attempt by Pittsburgh. It really wasn't pretty, yet after the game, Marvin said something along the lines of it being the most exciting/fun game he's ever coached... Marvin is enamored with 70's style football that simply doesn't work in this day and age. You can't sit on any lead. The goal should be to score on each and every possession but as we've all seen countless times Marvin is content to play the field position game once he gets a lead (any lead). Games rarely end with a final score of 10-6 anymore, but that's lost on good o'l Marv. 

Marv's defensive philosophy doesn't work if the offense scores fast and often. Marvs defensive approach ideally has the offense on the field as long as possible. Long, extended drives that ideally end with a score but it's ok if our punter can pin them deep too. Brat clearly had complete control of the offense and could run his deep-pass offense before Marvin really settled in as head coach. Once Marv got comfortable and decided to give himself more control, things changed. We had the perfect QB for an Air-it-Out offense and he was very successful for a few years when the offense was built around Carson's strengths. Bratskowski was doing a damn good job as OC when he had free reign. But then, sadly... Marvin decided to fix something that wasn't broke.

We went to a run first offense and took more of a control-the-clock approach. You could see it, and the offense really struggled with the new approach. This never suited Carsons strengths. It didn't at USC, it didn't in Cincy and it didn't in Oakland. Palmer is a picture perfect QB for an Air Coryell-type offense. 

Carson personally told Brat he didn't want him fired. Carsons real problem was with the Brown's and Marvin Lewis (who could blame him?). If Carson didn't blame Brat, then neither should we. Remember, Brat was our OC in 2005 when we couldn't be stopped. I doubt he just lost it, and I think a certain someone had him in handcuffs. 

(06-12-2017, 10:52 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Stumbled upon this little gem today today.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000814215/article/carson-palmer-a-super-bowl-win-from-hall-of-fame


Apparently coach Arians said:

""Well, statistically, if you put a ring on his finger, he probably has a chance to be talked about for the Hall of Fame because of his statistics," Arians told reporters Thursday, via ESPN.com."



If Arizona won the Super Bowl and later down the road Carson Palmer got into the HoF over guys like Kenny Anderson... how would you be feeling?

This is a joke, right?

Then Dalton would be getting in as well as his stats will end up better than the quitter...

(06-13-2017, 09:16 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is a joke, right?

Then Dalton would be getting in as well as his stats will end up better than the quitter...

Yep. Dalton has put up about exactly half of the passing yardage as Palmer (22,214 vs 44,269) and TD passes (142 vs 285) but has done that in less than half of the seasons (6 seasons vs 13 seasons). If Dalton can put up similar stats for 6-7 more years (Dalton would be 35-36 years old by then), he'll pass Palmer.

We're also seeing QBs play longer than ever now, so even the greats like John Elway, Warren Moon, and Fran Tarkenton will get bumped into the teens for stat rankings once the QBs of this era finish their careers . Remember back when we thought Favre was crazy for playing until he was 40? Well since then, we've seen Peyton Manning do that, we'll see Tom Brady do it this year (turns 40 in Aug), and we'll likely see Brees, Eli, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, etc. do the same.

This era of crazy passing stats and protecting the QB will have a lot of players exceeding the 45,000 passing yards and 275 TD marks. It's not hard to do that anymore.

He doesn't really have that most important stat Wins....

It illustrates my point that you can't compare stats from the past 15 years of NFL with the period before because of rule changes that made offense more plentiful.

Look at:
Aikmans Career - 165 TD, 141 Int, Passer Rating of 81.6, 32,942 total yards.
Palmers Stats so far - 285 TD, 181 Int, Passer Rating of 88, 44,269 total yards.

Palmer looks like the HOF compared to Aikman...but it's a different era.

For comparison Dalton already has 141 TD and 86 Int with an 89.1 passer rating and 22,214 yards.

(06-13-2017, 09:48 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep. Dalton has put up about exactly half of the passing yardage as Palmer (22,214 vs 44,269) and TD passes (142 vs 285) but has done that in less than half of the seasons (6 seasons vs 13 seasons). If Dalton can put up similar stats for 6-7 more years (Dalton would be 35-36 years old by then), he'll pass Palmer.

We're also seeing QBs play longer than ever now, so even the greats like John Elway, Warren Moon, and Fran Tarkenton will get bumped into the teens for stat rankings once the QBs of this era finish their careers . Remember back when we thought Favre was crazy for playing until he was 40? Well since then, we've seen Peyton Manning do that, we'll see Tom Brady do it this year (turns 40 in Aug), and we'll likely see Brees, Eli, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, etc. do the same.

This era of crazy passing stats and protecting the QB will have a lot of players exceeding the 45,000 passing yards and 275 TD marks. It's not hard to do that anymore.

A lot of the passing numbers have to do with the rule changes to protect QB's and WR's and not allow DB's to bump WR's as much near the line of scrimmage. Plain and simple the NFL wants more offense.

(06-13-2017, 01:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: A lot of the passing numbers have to do with the rule changes to protect QB's and WR's and not allow DB's to bump WR's as much near the line of scrimmage. Plain and simple the NFL wants more offense.

which is what makes great defenses so impressive in this era

(06-13-2017, 04:03 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: which is what makes great defenses so impressive in this era

Especially great defensive backs...makes the bengals look less dumb collecting all those 1st round DBs.

I don't know, i just don't see him play great in the big moments. He chokes a lot in the big games and throws too many pick 6's.

He has always been extremely talented and before his injuries might of been the most talented QB ever honestly but what you do in
the Playoffs and big games is what gets you into the HOF. I don't see him playing well enough to get the SB win, so no, won't happen.

(06-13-2017, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It illustrates my point that you can't compare stats from the past 15 years of NFL with the period before because of rule changes that made offense more plentiful.

Look at:
Aikmans Career - 165 TD, 141 Int, Passer Rating of 81.6, 32,942 total yards.
Palmers Stats so far - 285 TD, 181 Int, Passer Rating of 88, 44,269 total yards.

Palmer looks like the HOF compared to Aikman...but it's a different era.

For comparison Dalton already has 141 TD and 86 Int with an 89.1 passer rating and 22,214 yards.

(06-13-2017, 01:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: A lot of the passing numbers have to do with the rule changes to protect QB's and WR's and not allow DB's to bump WR's as much near the line of scrimmage. Plain and simple the NFL wants more offense.

And all of the above is why I get sick to my stomach when people try to call Brady the G.O.A.T. 

He plays in the perfect system in the perfect era, for his sissified ass. He wouldn't been known has he arrived a decade earlier.

(06-13-2017, 04:03 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: which is what makes great defenses so impressive in this era

Yes...yes it does. And you just know the league office will add more confusing and weird rules to help make sure that defense just goes away completely.

(06-13-2017, 05:06 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And all of the above is why I get sick to my stomach when people try to call Brady the G.O.A.T. 

He plays in the perfect system in the perfect era, for his sissified ass. He wouldn't been known has he arrived a decade earlier.



Yes...yes it does. And you just know the league office will add more confusing and weird rules to help make sure that defense just goes away completely.

Still, even though i agree with you Brady still wins the big games. Palmer doesn't and Dalton hasn't been able to yet.

Dalton i think could though...

Man i hate how the league is tying the arms behind Defense's backs.

(06-13-2017, 05:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Still, even though i agree with you Brady still wins the big games. Palmer doesn't and Dalton hasn't been able to yet.

Dalton i think could though...

Man i hate how the league is tying the arms behind Defense's backs.

Meh, Palmer is no HOFer but he managed to win a number of big games in the past few years.  He has a winning record against the Seahawks including winning all 3 games against them in Seattle (at least one of those games was pretty ugly, though). I had to double-check, but yea the guy is 3-0 in Seattle as a Cardinal during what was (doesn't seem to be anymore) the timeframe where hardly anyone could win there. That seems big-ish. Clearly we aren't talking SBs, but that would be like Dalton winning 3 in a row in Pittsburgh.

Also, it wasn't pretty and I'm sure we can look and see a bunch of "shoulda been INTs" but the Cardinals did manage to beat the ultra-golden QB that is Aaron Rodgers in a playoff game too. Palmer managed to win more big games and more prime-time games when he got away from Marvin Lewis.  I honestly think Dalton will do the same.

But back to the original topic, Palmer has been a starting QB for over a decade and that should be enough to hang his hat upon.  He's no HOF-er, but his late career resurgence and our own inability to stop choking since he left certainly reinforces my "meh factor" for Marvin and Mike.

(06-13-2017, 08:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, Palmer is no HOFer but he managed to win a number of big games in the past few years.  He has a winning record against the Seahawks including winning all 3 games against them in Seattle (at least one of those games was pretty ugly, though).  I had to double-check, but yea the guy is 3-0 in Seattle as a Cardinal during what was (doesn't seem to be anymore) the timeframe where hardly anyone could win there.  That seems big-ish.  Clearly we aren't talking SBs, but that would be like Dalton winning 3 in a row in Pittsburgh.

Also, it wasn't pretty and I'm sure we can look and see a bunch of "shoulda been INTs" but the Cardinals did manage to beat the ultra-golden QB that is Aaron Rodgers in a playoff game too.  Palmer managed to win more big games and more prime-time games when he got away from Marvin Lewis.  I honestly think Dalton will do the same.

But back to the original topic, Palmer has been a starting QB for over a decade and that should be enough to hang his hat upon.  He's no HOF-er, but his late career resurgence and our own inability to stop choking since he left certainly reinforces my "meh factor" for Marvin and Mike.

Agreed 100%. A part of me believes Carson would be still here had we parted ways with Lewis after the 2010 season. Now if that would be for better or for worse, I don't know. But if I had to guess, I'd say we'd at the very least have quite a few playoff wins by now. That's not a knock on Dalton, that's more of the team benefitting from a semi-decent coach (I'm assuming it would have been Zimmer). 

I only hope we part way with Lewis before we see the end of the Dalton era. 

(06-13-2017, 09:35 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Agreed 100%. A part of me believes Carson would be still here had we parted ways with Lewis after the 2010 season. Now if that would be for better or for worse, I don't know. But if I had to guess, I'd say we'd at the very least have quite a few playoff wins by now. That's not a knock on Dalton, that's more of the team benefitting from a semi-decent coach (I'm assuming it would have been Zimmer). 

I only hope we part way with Lewis before we see the end of the Dalton era. 

I think he wanted a break from Mike Brown more than anything, so I don't know if he'd stick around either way.  I will say that Jay Gruden is the 2011 MVP for talking our "GM" out of Mallet and into Dalton.  Ye gods, did we dodge a bullet there.

(06-13-2017, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think he wanted a break from Mike Brown more than anything, so I don't know if he'd stick around either way.  I will say that Jay Gruden is the 2011 MVP for talking our "GM" out of Mallet and into Dalton.  Ye gods, did we dodge a bullet there.

Possibly, I don't think we'll ever truly know. Carson did come out and say a couple years ago that he and management "disagreed" over the direction the team should go. I remember reports at the end of 2010 where Carson told Jerome Simpson to get ready to "tear it up" next season. This was before the infamous press conference where Mike extended Marvin Lewis' contract after his second 4 win season in three years. Not even a week later reports came out that Carson demanded a trade... 

But then again, Carson got very cynical in his weekly press conferences throughout that season. Before the thanksgiving game at the Jets, Carson pompously said "this game is on thanksgiving because of the jets, not the Bengals." In another instance, when Carson was asked if he could see himself playing on another team next season, he said "oh yeah" with a smirk. He very well could have been done with Cincy before the midpoint of the season. 

So really, who knows? But as lifelong fans of Mike Brown's Bengals, can any of us truly blame Carson for wanting out?  

(06-13-2017, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It illustrates my point that you can't compare stats from the past 15 years of NFL with the period before because of rule changes that made offense more plentiful.

Look at:
Aikmans Career - 165 TD, 141 Int, Passer Rating of 81.6, 32,942 total yards.
Palmers Stats so far - 285 TD, 181 Int, Passer Rating of 88, 44,269 total yards.

Palmer looks like the HOF compared to Aikman...but it's a different era.

For comparison Dalton already has 141 TD and 86 Int with an 89.1 passer rating and 22,214 yards.

We are in a league mandated "steroid era" but, without the steroids. 

(06-13-2017, 08:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, Palmer is no HOFer but he managed to win a number of big games in the past few years.  He has a winning record against the Seahawks including winning all 3 games against them in Seattle (at least one of those games was pretty ugly, though).  I had to double-check, but yea the guy is 3-0 in Seattle as a Cardinal during what was (doesn't seem to be anymore) the timeframe where hardly anyone could win there.  That seems big-ish.  Clearly we aren't talking SBs, but that would be like Dalton winning 3 in a row in Pittsburgh.

Also, it wasn't pretty and I'm sure we can look and see a bunch of "shoulda been INTs" but the Cardinals did manage to beat the ultra-golden QB that is Aaron Rodgers in a playoff game too.  Palmer managed to win more big games and more prime-time games when he got away from Marvin Lewis.  I honestly think Dalton will do the same.

But back to the original topic, Palmer has been a starting QB for over a decade and that should be enough to hang his hat upon.  He's no HOF-er, but his late career resurgence and our own inability to stop choking since he left certainly reinforces my "meh factor" for Marvin and Mike.

All great points, Palmer did have an injured finger in the Playoffs in 2015 too so there is another excuse for him in big games.

Don't get me wrong about Carson Palmer either, i am not in the crowd that calls him a quitter. I blame MB and Marv just as much as him for
what happened that Offseason. We don't know what was going on but there is definately not a win no matter what attitude here and that starts from the top down.

Glad it happened now though and completely agree with you in your later post about getting Dalton over Mallett, great job by Jay Gruden.

If Ken Anderson doesn't have HOF worthy stats, then CP's stats are certainly not HOF worthy either.

My criteria for a HOF QB is you have to be a Top 5-6 QB for a number of years. That's the only way to account for the changing rules and stats in the NFL.

Palmer was only a Top 5-6 QB for probably 1 season. He may have been in the 7-10 range some seasons...but that's just a good QB. Not a HOF guy.

The case will be the same with Dalton. He is putting up big numbers...but if you rank which QB's you'd want to have leading your team...he comes out 12-15.

Maybe as guys retire and he gets better with Ross and the offensive weapons he has he will move up the list and become Top 5. Some guys get there in their 30's.

I kinda see Dalton as a Rich Gannon-type QB who was VERY good in his prime.

(06-13-2017, 09:59 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Possibly, I don't think we'll ever truly know. Carson did come out and say a couple years ago that he and management "disagreed" over the direction the team should go. I remember reports at the end of 2010 where Carson told Jerome Simpson to get ready to "tear it up" next season. This was before the infamous press conference where Mike extended Marvin Lewis' contract after his second 4 win season in three years. Not even a week later reports came out that Carson demanded a trade... 

But then again, Carson got very cynical in his weekly press conferences throughout that season. Before the thanksgiving game at the Jets, Carson pompously said "this game is on thanksgiving because of the jets, not the Bengals." In another instance, when Carson was asked if he could see himself playing on another team next season, he said "oh yeah" with a smirk. He very well could have been done with Cincy before the midpoint of the season. 

So really, who knows? But as lifelong fans of Mike Brown's Bengals, can any of us truly blame Carson for wanting out?  

I think the short of it is that after 2010 Marvin Lewis was the first to make public that Mike Brown needed to make changes or he was going to leave Cincy and coach elsewhere.  Carson wasn't public about anything of that nature, which is why his demand for a trade seemed like a knee-jerk slap in the face.

It seemed like Marvin and Carson approached Mike as a unified force demanding some changes.  Mike Brown doesn't budge and Marvin gives in and stays (perhaps because Mike offered him some extra control, perhaps because he wasn't getting the job offers he expected).  This puts Carson in the position where he is working for the same stubborn owner, but now he had the added "bonus" of a HC who flipped on their agreement to stand their ground and demand change.

Again, this is just pieced-together speculation because the only person in this triad who has a reason to speak ill of the Bengals hasn't said much about it and Marvin isn't going to rock the boat as long as he's here.  The bottom line is that it is a FACT that Marvin Lewis was the first one to make public that he wasn't going to coach here until some specific demands (indoor practice facility, for one) were met.  We know for a fact that he totally caved in on that and once that happened Carson made his desire to exit known.

Football is all emotion to us, but it's business to all 3 of the men in this situation.  I get it.  Anyways, it's been 6 years and life went on.