(07-05-2017, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think Andy would leap frog Eli and Flacco without question. He would also most likely surpass Alex Smith in my book. It is my opinion that nobody with the Andy fathead on their wall considers Andy's playoff performance at all. It is other people's fault. 

Well, I don't have an Andy "Fat Head", so maybe that disqualifies me from this argument, but I know Andy has had playoff struggles and I think he has also had a very poor performance in many of those games from the coaches and supporting cast.  

The QB gets the blame and the credit, right?  Ok, but why then does he get no credit for what he has done with the team he took over?  They went to the playoffs twice with Palmer....five times (in a row) with Dalton.  And people think because his team lost in the playoffs that he isn't a good QB?  Like I said earlier...lots of top tier QBs struggled early on in the playoffs.  Some rarely made the playoffs.  Yet, they are revered as some of the best of all time.  

You make it sound like I ignore the postseason.  My point is, shouldn't he get an ounce of credit for getting them there?

The 2013 game against the Chargers wasn't all on Dalton.  The 2014 game against the Colts surely wasn't either. 
That 2015 team was rolling through the NFL before his injury.  Last year's team was decimated by injuries and a complete meltdown in the kicking game.  

If you want to hang your hat on his first two playoff games where he was below average, so be it.  I see the needle pointing up.  

(07-04-2017, 10:17 AM)grampahol Wrote: Andy plays for the Bengals. Did anyone really even think he would get the respect he deserves outside of the fan base? Andy could throw for 6000 yards and 52 TDs this year and still be called Mr Average. It's the Kenny Anderson curse or something like that. 
Now if he were traded to any other team he'd instantly be called the greatest QB since sliced bread. Better than Wonder bread even! (which I never really liked to be honest, but I did get to go on a Wonder bread factory tour in grade school once. I remember the mouse traps everywhere and the huge vitamin pill they put in every batch.. Yeah, they actually did that. Builds strong bodies 12 ways. They never mentioned how constipating white bread is which would be a great selling point, eh?) 

The curse started at the beginning with Greg Cook!

Check out Elway's career playoff game logs:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/post/

Make special note of the column that has his age, on the left...

(07-05-2017, 12:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not a small sample, just the criteria used by the site to rank. If we were to consider small sample sizes then the likes of Dak and Marriota would be ahead of Andy. 

I don't understand why bringing in the same criteria and the same site that the OP used gets classified as Andy Bashing. Is it because he did poorly? 

How has Mariota done in the playoffs? How about Winston or Carr? My point was simple, AD played 20 times more regular season games (big sample) than playoff games (small sample). How do you rank guys ahead of AD who have a far less sample (regular season) and never were good enough to get the opportunity to play in a playoff game?

I just find it interesting you bash AD for leading his team to the playoffs of a team coming off a 4-12 season and picked to be one of the worst teams in the NFL. He started as a rookie, no camp due to strike and then led his team over and over to the playoffs.

I have always respected your opinion, but it just seems to me you have a negative bias towards AD and refuse to listen to other's opinion. No doubt AD has had some very bad playoff games, but he also got them there starting as a rookie when many are on the bench or not good enough to get them there.

(07-06-2017, 07:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Check out Elway's career playoff game logs:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/post/

Make special note of the column that has his age, on the left...

See, everyone talks about Elway not accomplishing much until his late 30's when he won the two Super Bowls, but by the time he was 30 years old (Dalton will be 30 on Oct 29), he had already won six playoff games (6-5 record).

Peyton Manning, whom many consider the same "lack of playoff success" as Elway had (and some even mention Dalton too), had only three playoff wins by the time he was 30 years old (3-6 record).

With that said, it's evident now more than ever that QBs are having no problem being very good into their late 30's, so we should still have about 6-10 more years for Dalton to get some playoff wins and hopefully a chance to play in a Super Bowl. Also, by the time Dalton is in his mid-30's, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli, Rivers, and Palmer should all be gone and guys like Matt Ryan, Flacco, Rodgers, and Alex Smith will also be gone or in the last year or two of their careers. The new era will be that of Luck, Wilson, Dalton, Carr, Winston, Mariota, etc.

(07-06-2017, 09:43 AM)ochocincos Wrote: See, everyone talks about Elway not accomplishing much until his late 30's when he won the two Super Bowls, but by the time he was 30 years old (Dalton will be 30 on Oct 29), he had already won six playoff games (6-5 record).

Peyton Manning, whom many consider the same "lack of playoff success" as Elway had (and some even mention Dalton too), had only three playoff wins by the time he was 30 years old (3-6 record).

With that said, it's evident now more than ever that QBs are having no problem being very good into their late 30's, so we should still have about 6-10 more years for Dalton to get some playoff wins and hopefully a chance to play in a Super Bowl. Also, by the time Dalton is in his mid-30's, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli, Rivers, and Palmer should all be gone and guys like Matt Ryan, Flacco, Rodgers, and Alex Smith will also be gone or in the last year or two of their careers. The new era will be that of Luck, Wilson, Dalton, Carr, Winston, Mariota, etc.

However, Elway didn't have a playoff game with a positive TD/Int ratio until his 5th season.  The Broncos largely won with him, not because of him.

(07-06-2017, 12:27 PM)Whatever Wrote: However, Elway didn't have a playoff game with a positive TD/Int ratio until his 5th season.  The Broncos largely won with him, not because of him.

True...somewhat. The difference between Elway and Dalton is that Elway's first five playoff games only had a -2 differential (5 TDs : 7 INT).
Dalton's four games has been -5 (1 TD : 6 INT).

Just like Roethlisberger, most young QBs in the playoffs need an elite team around them. Dalton hasn't really had that. The running game has never been outstanding in those playoff games. Receivers have had some critical drops. The defense has had their fair share of critical missed tackles (looking at you, Maualuga).

(07-06-2017, 12:27 PM)Whatever Wrote: However, Elway didn't have a playoff game with a positive TD/Int ratio until his 5th season.  The Broncos largely won with him, not because of him.

When did Andy have his first?

It's not like Andy has had a "fair' game here and there and the team has let him down. He has a 57 passer rating in playoff games with his best ever being a 1 TD, 2 INT game with a rating of 67. I have no idea how folks can look at our playoff games and try to point the finger elsewhere.

If you look at our seven playoff misadventures under Marvin, you can readily see they are team collapses.

Only in 2015 did we get a good defensive performance. Only in 2009 did we have decent rushing.

We have had plagues of dropped balls (like 5 from Gresham), bizarre play design, have gotten soundly beaten on both lines and had inexcusable breakdowns in discipline. We've also had a significant problem with being injured going into the playoffs before (2015, 2014, 2005, 2009 and so on).

But the common thread here is not QB - it is Head Coach.

(07-06-2017, 01:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: If you look at our seven playoff misadventures under Marvin, you can readily see they are team collapses.

Only in 2015 did we get a good defensive performance. Only in 2009 did we have decent rushing.

We have had plagues of dropped balls (like 5 from Gresham), bizarre play design, have gotten soundly beaten on both lines and had inexcusable breakdowns in discipline. We've also had a significant problem with being injured going into the playoffs before (2015, 2014, 2005, 2009 and so on).

But the common thread here is not QB - it is Head Coach.

....and honestly, it seemed they only came alive after the shot to Gio went uncalled.  In '09, Benson played like a man possessed.  He brought his A game for sure

(07-06-2017, 01:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When did Andy have his first?

It's not like Andy has had a "fair' game here and there and the team has let him down. He has a 57 passer rating in playoff games with his best ever being a 1 TD, 2 INT game with a rating of 67. I have no idea how folks can look at our playoff games and try to point the finger elsewhere.

Wait, what?  I'm not going to try an argue that Andy didn't have a part in those loses, but to say he's the only one at fault is disingenuous. There are so many people to point fingers at that I've run out of fingers.

(07-06-2017, 02:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....and honestly, it seemed they only came alive after the shot to Gio went uncalled.  In '09, Benson played like a man possessed.  He brought his A game for sure

Agreed on Benson. He seems to be the only player who went 100% for a whole playoff game. BJGE might have looked good for the San Diego game, but we took the ball away from him so we'll never know.

(07-06-2017, 09:43 AM)ochocincos Wrote: With that said, it's evident now more than ever that QBs are having no problem being very good into their late 30's, so we should still have about 6-10 more years for Dalton to get some playoff wins and hopefully a chance to play in a Super Bowl. Also, by the time Dalton is in his mid-30's, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli, Rivers, and Palmer should all be gone and guys like Matt Ryan, Flacco, Rodgers, and Alex Smith will also be gone or in the last year or two of their careers. The new era will be that of Luck, Wilson, Dalton, Carr, Winston, Mariota, etc.

And I would take Dalton over anyone in that group.  He has played in a tougher division, and has showed he can have the elite season (2015).  With a healthy squad this season, he is going to have his best season ever and that is why I think they can win it all this year.

(07-06-2017, 01:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When did Andy have his first?

It's not like Andy has had a "fair' game here and there and the team has let him down. He has a 57 passer rating in playoff games with his best ever being a 1 TD, 2 INT game with a rating of 67. I have no idea how folks can look at our playoff games and try to point the finger elsewhere.

Andy hasn't performed well in the playoffs.  However, the entire team has played poorly in the playoffs.  

In the San Diego game you reference, Dalton threw for 334 yards and was sacked 3 times.  The D gave up almost 200 yards on the ground.  Speaking of playoff underperformers AJ Green caught 3 passes for 34 yards.  The Bengals leading rusher had 45 yards.  No doubt, Dalton didn't play well.  However, the entire team played poorly.  

(07-07-2017, 12:29 AM)Whatever Wrote: Andy hasn't performed well in the playoffs.  However, the entire team has played poorly in the playoffs.  

In the San Diego game you reference, Dalton threw for 334 yards and was sacked 3 times.  The D gave up almost 200 yards on the ground.  Speaking of playoff underperformers AJ Green caught 3 passes for 34 yards.  The Bengals leading rusher had 45 yards.  No doubt, Dalton didn't play well.  However, the entire team played poorly.  

The Bengals led that game 10-7 at the half and it could have EASILY been 17-7 at the half, had Gio not fumbled at the SD 3 yard line.  Dalton was forced to throw the ball 51 times, and, yes, he had two costly interceptions in the second half.  I just think the defense, the game plan, the lack of a running game, and that fumble were every bit as responsible for that loss as Dalton.  

He is not without fault, but to single him out in the SD game or the Colts game just isn't responsible.  

He had two poor outings against Houston (his first two in the league, and there were a crap ton of drops in the second one...and don't quote the NFL stats....I still have the game and Gresh dropped at least 5 balls himself, on easy, drive-sustaining plays) and he had two performances that could have won the games.  

His best year, by far, was 2015.  After those first four years, and a huge number of folks pointing the finger at him, he goes out and has an elite QB type of season (before the injury).  He threw for 4200 yards and only 7 INTs with only a couple games that had AJ and Eifert together, no running game, a porous offensive line, a rookie OC, and a banged up TE squad.  

Perhaps that is one of the reasons I am so firmly in his camp....he never folds.  He comes back better each year.  How many other players can say that?  Maybe AJ.  While a lot of his defensive leaders struggled with weight.  Some of his offensive leaders lost their mojo (Hill).  A lot of his teammates dealt with injurires.   But he just keeps coming back, despite what I would call a horribly unfair lack of support.  He never complains.  He just goes out and does better than the year before.

This is his year.  This is the Bengal's year.  

(07-06-2017, 05:53 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: And I would take Dalton over anyone in that group.  He has played in a tougher division, and has showed he can have the elite season (2015).  With a healthy squad this season, he is going to have his best season ever and that is why I think they can win it all this year.

While I hope Dalton has his best season this year, I think it will be next year. The reason I think that is because the only big question mark right now is OL and the Bengals can address that early in a draft with a deep OL class. They need to get Burfict and/or Eifert locked up though.

(07-06-2017, 04:14 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Agreed on Benson. He seems to be the only player who went 100% for a whole playoff game. BJGE might have looked good for the San Diego game, but we took the ball away from him so we'll never know.

Absolutely agree on Benny.  When we were still in that game, only down a few points, I felt we should have let things settle down a bit and pounded the rock.  I don't know if you remember the stats I have shared a few times that showed he had a knack for playing well against SD his entire career, but he averaged around 5 YPC against them, and had 92 yards at around a 4.5 YPC clip only weeks prior.  Instead, we decided to panic and air it out, resulting in numerous turnovers.  Ugh.

(07-07-2017, 09:37 AM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely agree on Benny.  When we were still in that game, only down a few points, I felt we should have let things settle down a bit and pounded the rock.  I don't know if you remember the stats I have shared a few times that showed he had a knack for playing well against SD his entire career, but he averaged around 5 YPC against them, and had 92 yards at around a 4.5 YPC clip only weeks prior.  Instead, we decided to panic and air it out, resulting in numerous turnovers.  Ugh.

That's Jay Gruden....he's got a great scheme for a fantasy QB, but I think he isn't balanced enough to make playoff runs.  I don't root against him, in fact, I am becoming a bit of a closet Redskins fan (I loved "YOU LIKE THAT?  YOU LIKE THAT!") but I fear he will continue to struggle if he wants his QB throwing the ball 50 times a game.  

(07-06-2017, 01:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: If you look at our seven playoff misadventures under Marvin, you can readily see they are team collapses.

Only in 2015 did we get a good defensive performance. Only in 2009 did we have decent rushing.

We have had plagues of dropped balls (like 5 from Gresham), bizarre play design, have gotten soundly beaten on both lines and had inexcusable breakdowns in discipline. We've also had a significant problem with being injured going into the playoffs before (2015, 2014, 2005, 2009 and so on).

But the common thread here is not QB - it is Head Coach.

And this is why I don't believe it's a "no-brainer" that the Bengals would have beaten the Steelers with the 05 team.

Like sure, Palmer makes a difference. There's no denying that. But the Steelers still put up 31 points. And the offense sizzled in the 2nd half.

The same thing happened in 2013 against the Chargers.

In the 1st half, the Bengals scored 10 points and could have scored more if it weren't for Gio's fumble within the 5 yard line.

In the first half, Dalton was 12 for 17 for 164 yards and a TD.
He completed 70% of his passes and had a QB rating of 120.7.

And then we saw how the 2nd half went

(07-09-2017, 04:05 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: And this is why I don't believe it's a "no-brainer" that the Bengals would have beaten the Steelers with the 05 team.

Like sure, Palmer makes a difference. There's no denying that. But the Steelers still put up 31 points. And the offense sizzled in the 2nd half.

The same thing happened in 2013 against the Chargers.

In the 1st half, the Bengals scored 10 points and could have scored more if it weren't for Gio's fumble within the 5 yard line.

In the first half, Dalton was 12 for 17 for 164 yards and a TD.
He completed 70% of his passes and had a QB rating of 120.7.

And then we saw how the 2nd half went

Many forget we were down 10 with 6 minutes to go and AD threw a perfect bomb down right sidelines to AJ that AJ admitted later he should have caught for a TD and then only down 3. It also would have boosted AD's numbers.