Hall's salary cap hit is $9.6 million in 2015.

Hobson said that hall is getting safety snaps in the nickel.

Who is hall displacing? Nelson or Iloka?

(08-06-2015, 10:12 PM)Blake2Pickens Wrote: That, and not asking hall to restructure his contract were two head scratching moves from the Bengals this offseason.

Peko will make 3.7 million and was one of the worst DTS in the game last year. PFF had him in the bottom 5% of the league, so I wonder what the thought process in keeping him here was.

Hall...is in jeopardy of losing his job.  Had the Bengals asked him to take a 50% pay cut or he'd be released, he would have taken the 3.8 million for the season.  He never would have received more than that if he were cut.

Instead hall is going to be making 7.7 million and Peko 3.7.  I see that as a waste of 7.5 million. Nick Fairley was signed for 5 million.

I'm asking cause I honestly see no value in how they played both players final year in stripes

What does the team gain cutting Peko prior to the end of the preseason? They can go through camp, then insure no major injuries at the DT position and cut him and pay none of his salary as it is not guaranteed,

I don't think PFF knows or takes into account the DL calls each play when they do their evaluation. I am not an expert, but Zimmer is and when PFF stats were saying Peko sucks, Zimmer was saying he was one of the best in the league. Zimmer never pulls punches and could care less about a player's feelings so I trust what Zimmer said over guys who analyze simply by tackles, sacks and forced fumbles with no idea the role a player is playing in the defense each snap.

(08-07-2015, 09:25 AM)Crowe Wrote: unfortunately the bengals staff have this mentality that rookies shouldn't play over veterans 

These people disagree

Odell Thurman
David Pollack
Leon Hall
Johnathan Joseph
Keith Rivers
Rey Maualuga
Jermain Gresham
Michael Johnson
Carlos Dunlap
AJ Green
Andy Dalton
Kevin Zeitler
Tyler Eifert
Russell Bodine

(08-07-2015, 09:28 AM)Bengalfan11164 Wrote: Hall's salary cap hit is $9.6 million in 2015.

Hobson said that hall is getting safety snaps in the nickel.

Who is hall displacing?  Nelson or Iloka?

Neither? You answered your own question.

(08-07-2015, 09:20 AM)djs7685 Wrote: 1. In 2014, the Bengals defensive line ranked 27th in the league in letting opposing ball carriers get to the 2nd level.

2. In 2014, the Bengals defensive line ranked 26th in YPC up the middle.

Are those the signs of having a good NT?? Ironically enough, it seems that most of the teams ranked highly in those categories have very good NTs. If you think total tackles tell part of the story, I'd hope that you're willing to admit that those figures tell part of it as well.

1.  I have no idea because it is impossible to analyze an individual with a team stats like this.  If RBs are getting to the second level by getting around the edge then it has zero to do with Peko.

2.  This does show that the Bengals struggled with run defense up the middle.  I will admit that.  However I would bet that there are some tams ranked low in average allowed up the middle who have good NT/DTs because most runs up the middle include a double team at the the point of attack.


I am not trying to argue that Peko is an elite DT/NT, but he is FAR from the bottom of the league like PFF tries to claim.  I remember when  you posted the entire list of PFF rankings and it included some back ups in the top 15.  PFF does a good job of keeping raw stats, but their rankings per play are very subjective and questionable at best.

(08-07-2015, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: These people disagree

Odell Thurman
David Pollack
Leon Hall
Johnathan Joseph
Keith Rivers
Rey Maualuga
Jermain Gresham
Michael Johnson
Carlos Dunlap
AJ Green
Andy Dalton
Kevin Zeitler
Tyler Eifert
Russell Bodine

Wasn't over 90% of that list either basically forced into starting due to nobody behind them, or in a guy's case like Eifert a TE2 anyway?

I'm not agreeing with the notion that the coaching staff is like "nope, definitely not going to play this rookie that has looked good because our other crappy guy has been here longer!", so don't get me wrong here. I just don't know if listing a bunch of guys that were taken in high rounds that were drafted as immediate needs is proving much.

It's really simple. Most coaching staffs in the entire NFL are going to play their veterans if they believe they're better players than the rookies, plain and simple. Nobody in the world is right 100% of the time, sometimes the coaches are wrong, it happens. Marvin and the gang put whoever they feel is the better player on the field, whether their decision are always right is another story, but they aren't just a group of stubborn old men that refuse to put rookies on the field.

(08-07-2015, 09:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  I have no idea because it is impossible to analyze an individual with a team stats like this.  If RBs are getting to the second level by getting around the edge then it has zero to do with Peko.

2.  This does show that the Bengals struggled with run defense up the middle.  I will admit that.  However I would bet that there are some tams ranked low in average allowed up the middle who have good NT/DTs because most runs up the middle include a double team at the the point of attack.


I am not trying to argue that Peko is an elite DT/NT, but he is FAR from the bottom of the league like PFF tries to claim.  I remember when  you posted the entire list of PFF rankings and it included some back ups in the top 15.  PFF does a good job of keeping raw stats, but their rankings per play are very subjective and questionable at best.

Fair enough. I may have been harsh on Peko in the past more so than I should have, but I really don't think he's a good player anymore, his best days are clearly behind him. I think we can all agree that Peko at least hasn't been a GOOD player for a year or so now.

I'm not saying to cut the guy, but I'd have liked if the team actively tried to replace him this past year after declining for a couple of straight seasons. Somebody else mentioned it, but the team seems loaded at 3 techs and we don't have a lot of options at NT. Would have been nice to see them bring in a big NT to do some work and at least give them a chance to unseat Peko.

(08-07-2015, 09:50 AM)djs7685 Wrote:  I think we can all agree that Peko at least hasn't been a GOOD player for a year or so now.

The question is did his level of play drop off in 2014 because his skills declined or because he played too many snaps?

Since you relied on team rush defense stats to try and show that peko was not very good in 2014 I assume you agree he was much better in 2013, right?

(08-07-2015, 09:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The question is did his level of play drop off in 2014 because his skills declined or because he played too many snaps?

Since you relied on team rush defense stats to try and show that peko was not very good in 2014 I assume you agree he was much better in 2013, right?

To answer your first question, probably a little bit of both. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that his skills declined but he could be more effective in a smaller role. So sort of both. He probably played too many snaps for his current skillset.

Well as you said, more goes into it than just Peko alone, but he probably played better in 2013 than 2014 seeing as the numbers were dramatically better. I don't think he was great in 2013 either though, that was probably the first season that he noticeably declined quite a bit. I believe all of these numbers can tell part of the story, which is nice that we have quite a lot to look at overall.

I believe the most confusing thing when looking at the overall numbers is how bad they were in 2012 despite Geno playing at an absurd level that year for the interior line.

(08-07-2015, 10:03 AM)djs7685 Wrote: To answer your first question, probably a little bit of both. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that his skills declined but he could be more effective in a smaller role. So sort of both. He probably played too many snaps for his current skillset.

Well as you said, more goes into it than just Peko alone, but he probably played better in 2013 than 2014 seeing as the numbers were dramatically better. I don't think he was great in 2013 either though, that was probably the first season that he noticeably declined quite a bit. I believe all of these numbers can tell part of the story, which is nice that we have quite a lot to look at overall.

I believe the most confusing thing when looking at the overall numbers is how bad they were in 2012 despite Geno playing at an absurd level that year for the interior line.

Honestly I like Peko, and he would serve the team better in a lessened role... the only problem is he is being paid starter salary.  He either needs to be cut so we can pay our young guys, or restructure his deal to make it more teram friendly.  I love his leadership, but his play has left a lot to be desired the last few years.

Peko is a sub par NT. That said Pat Sims and Brandon Thompson are the only viable options we have on the roster to replace him at NT. If anyone honestly believes that we would be better off cutting Peko and rolling with either of them as the starter we aren't watching the same team. The same can be said for Hall. He will take over as #3 CB in a similar roll to Chris Crocker. Pacman, Dre, and DD will roll through on the outside and hall will be asked to cover TEs and RBs.

As to the cost. Hall is done here after this year. We can't justify keeping that cost for and aging CB. Maybe he resigns for a huge paycut but otherwise he is no longer in stripes. Peko still has one more year after this one. I expect we start looking for a true NT in next years draft and after 2016 we show him the same door we show Hall at the end of this season. The front office likes honoring the full extent of their contracts and it is something the players appreciate. No chance either is let go due to salary concerns. Neither is bad enough to warrant replacement by someone on our roster currently.

BengalDawg

(08-07-2015, 10:29 AM)c12schleyer Wrote:  his play has left a lot to be desired the last few years.

No it hasn't.  He looked worse in 2014, but before that he was a key player on one of the best D-lines in the league.

Peko is one of those guys that some people have hated on for years.  And I don't know why.

(08-07-2015, 01:08 PM)BengalDawg Wrote: Peko is a sub par NT. That said Pat Sims and Brandon Thompson are the only viable options we have on the roster to replace him at NT. If anyone honestly believes that we would be better off cutting Peko and rolling with either of them as the starter we aren't watching the same team. The same can be said for Hall. He will take over as #3 CB in a similar roll to Chris Crocker. Pacman, Dre, and DD will roll through on the outside and hall will be asked to cover TEs and RBs.

As to the cost. Hall is done here after this year. We can't justify keeping that cost for and aging CB. Maybe he resigns for a huge paycut but otherwise he is no longer in stripes. Peko still has one more year after this one. I expect we start looking for a true NT in next years draft and after 2016 we show him the same door we show Hall at the end of this season. The front office likes honoring the full extent of their contracts and it is something the players appreciate. No chance either is let go due to salary concerns. Neither is bad enough to warrant replacement by someone on our roster currently.

BengalDawg

I wouldn't call Peko subpar, but he's no star either. 

I like Hall.  He's a savy vet that is at the right place at the right time.  I agree that having him is a luxury (at his salary level), but the Bengals keep their dead money low.  So, they can have that luxury.  He's probably gone at season's end, but if we make a run, I'd rather have him than not, just from a depth standpoint.

(08-07-2015, 01:40 PM)EatonFan Wrote: I wouldn't call Peko subpar, but he's no star either. 

I like Hall.  He's a savy vet that is at the right place at the right time.  I agree that having him is a luxury (at his salary level), but the Bengals keep their dead money low.  So, they can have that luxury.  He's probably gone at season's end, but if we make a run, I'd rather have him than not, just from a depth standpoint.

I 100% agree on Hall. He is currently a luxury we can afford. I'm willing to explore new options after his contract is up this season. I would also be willing to bring him back at a major discount. 

I may have been harsh at subpar but I'd say he is nothing more than average. Again I hope we look to draft a replacement at the end of this season who can get 1 year under him and the be primed to take his spot

(08-07-2015, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it hasn't.  He looked worse in 2014, but before that he was a key player on one of the best D-lines in the league.

Peko is one of those guys that some people have hated on for years.  And I don't know why.

If you watch film from 2013 and 2014, it is a regular occurence for Peko to get blown off the ball, and the only reason he looked "stout" and sufficient most of the 2013 season is because he had a healthy Atkins beside him.  After Atkins went down, and all last season his current talent level was more accurately displayed.

Neither are going anywhere this year. But I'd guess they will be looking hard for Peko's replacement in next years draft & Hall in all probability won/t be here either. This season is sort of a all in scenario IMHO At least it should be. The window is slowly closing it seems.

(08-07-2015, 09:38 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Neither? You answered your own question.

Nickel is 5 dbs, including 2 outside cbs, a slot cb, and 2 safeties.

If hall was playing the slot cb (as he has historically), then Hobson wouldn't report a change.

Hobson is reporting the hall is playing at safety in the nickel.

So, with pacman (outside), drekirk (outside), dennard (slot?), and 2 safeties (Nelson and Iloka), which safety is Leon hall displacing if he is playing safety in the nickel formation?

(08-07-2015, 04:26 PM)Bengalfan11164 Wrote: Nickel is 5 dbs, including 2 outside cbs, a slot cb, and 2 safeties.

If hall was playing the slot cb (as he has historically), then Hobson wouldn't report a change.

Hobson is reporting the hall is playing at safety in the nickel.

So, with pacman (outside), drekirk (outside), dennard (slot?), and 2 safeties (Nelson and Iloka), which safety is Leon hall displacing if he is playing safety in the nickel formation?

I just assume one of the 3 out of Hall, Iloka, and Nelson are playing the technical "5th" DB, but I could be wrong.

I see no reason they'd take out one of the better coverage safeties in a pass defense formation. Nelson and Iloka are one of the best coverage tandems in the league right now.

(08-07-2015, 02:44 PM)c12schleyer Wrote: If you watch film from 2013 and 2014, it is a regular occurence for Peko to get blown off the ball, and the only reason he looked "stout" and sufficient most of the 2013 season is because he had a healthy Atkins beside him.  After Atkins went down, and all last season his current talent level was more accurately displayed.

Having Atkins beside him did not change how he dealt with blockers, and Atkins only played half of the season in 2013.

Peko has been a very good DT for us for years.  Mike Zimmer says he was the best NT he had coached.  Peko is not as bad as you claim.

Peko stays on the team, it's already been discussed and put to rest. Hall is also staying on this team, also discussed and put to rest.

It's been stated that the Bengals usually like to keep these kinds of contracts because it shows younger players that they're not going to try and cut them out of a deal to early and so on. I mean, Robert Geathers was signed to a $33 million contract in 2007. They let him play it out even though he never came close to double digit sacks again.