I figure him at #8. However, with what he has this year, that could improve drastically.

(08-03-2017, 12:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ATL- Matt Ryan
GBP- Aaron Rodgers
NEP- Tom Brady
NOS- Drew Brees
SEA- Russel Martin (Wilson?)

I will get absolutely slaughtered for this, but taking in to account where they are in their careers, and how they are playing right now....

Matt Ryan showed he can command the offense that was loaded with talent.  I see him and Dalton as very similar, but Matt has done it more in the big games. albeit later in his career, so until I see Dalton do it Ryan gets ranked ahead of him. 

I also don't give Luck the benefit of the doubt just because of his draft status.  These are the QBs I ranked solidly ahead of Dalton.  Russell Wilson has come back to earth a bit due to serious neglect on his offensive line, but I think that guy is really, really tough to defend.  

Phillip Rivers and Eli Manning have been better QBs, but I just don't see it any more.  Manning is a turnover machine and Rivers has had significant decline as well.  

And I hate piggy too much to put him ahead of Dalton, plus he is old, fat, and can't seem to keep his damn mouth shut (has already pissed off the suspended teammate and now he is mad at Arians for calling him out in his book).  He was a tough QB to bring down early in his career, but he has the mobility of a fat linemen and showed without his running game just how bad he sucks in the playoffs last year.  

I have him 6-10. Honestly I don't see him too far off the top 5, but I think people overrate QBs like Wilson, and Newton. Wilson looked really impressive after his bye in 2015, but other than that he seems to let the run game and defense carry him. Newton hasn't seemed to improve very much at all since his rookie year, hell, you could argue that he's worse now than his rookie season. People like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are all getting older and Dalton will soon pass all of them because of that IMO.

(08-03-2017, 10:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I picked 11-13 without looking at the list, just because it "felt" right. After looking at the list, i said to myself, "self...who would you consider to be at least equal to Dalton, in this list?" 

I counted 12 that i felt were at least equal to him. A couple i didn't consider because i felt they haven't done it long enough yet. 

I still feel 11-13, with what he's done in his career, is a solid pick. But i do believe he can climb the list if he continues to do what he's done over the last 2 years.

Well if you go off of guys I consider to be similar or better, I'd also say there are 12. Maybe up to 15 if you're more sold on the young guys. I'd love to see a list from guys who feel Dalton is like 16th or worse. At that point you're just throwing him behind every solid QB and a few youngsters.

I look at it like this. You have this quickly shrinking "elite" tier that's always been Peyton (gone), Brady (almost gone), Brees (same), Ben (same, but I see some Favre drama coming) and Rodgers. After this elite tier you have this glob of good QBs. 

People get really passionate about rankings (myself included), but if you swapped Dalton for say...Luck, Stafford, Palmer, Newton, or even Ryan or Carr...is this team really improving much? I don't see it, and these are some of the guys that are often ahead of Dalton in rankings.

In 2-3 years, it's going to get interesting trying to rank the top 5. Once Brady, Brees and Ben retire, we're going to have to look at QBs that have seriously flawed or lacking resumes and project them as top 5 anyway.

What would Kirk Cousins have to do (besides wear Orange) to be ranked ahead of Andy?

(08-04-2017, 12:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What would Kirk Cousins have to do (besides wear Orange) to be ranked ahead of Andy?

Have a year like Dalton did in 15 where he's a legitimate MVP candidate. 

(08-04-2017, 12:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Have a year like Dalton did in 15 where he's a legitimate MVP candidate. 

You mean the year Cam won MVP? You don't consider Kirk's 2015 season comparable to Andy's?

I simply ask because I see all the criteria folks are giving about why they cannot put so and so ahead of Andy and Kirk didn't seem to fit any of the criteria.

(08-04-2017, 12:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What would Kirk Cousins have to do (besides wear Orange) to be ranked ahead of Andy?

Hmm.

Cousins has a losing record as starter (19-21-1)
Can't convince a team that's been without a QB for decades to commit
5 years, no playoff wins (pretty important stat to some)
And his best 2 years (99.3 rating) are pretty equal to Dalton's last 2 (98.1) while having a much cleaner pocket in a more forgiving division.

But yeah. It must be the homer thing.

(08-04-2017, 12:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You mean the year Cam won MVP? You don't consider Kirk's 2015 season comparable to Andy's?

I simply ask because I see all the criteria folks are giving about why they cannot put so and so ahead of Andy and Kirk didn't seem to fit any of the criteria.

Show me the list of articles that mention Cousins as an MVP candidate in 2015.

There's plenty that mention Dalton, often in the top 5.

Solidly 11-13....

(08-04-2017, 12:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Hmm.

Cousins has a losing record as starter (19-21-1)
Can't convince a team that's been without a QB for decades to commit
5 years, no playoff wins (pretty important stat to some)
And his best 2 years (99.3 rating) are pretty equal to Dalton's last 2 (98.1) while having a much cleaner pocket in a more forgiving division.

But yeah. It must be the homer thing.

So a winning record and a big contract?


If you want to hold the fact that his team was too stupid to start him until the last two years; I suppose that's your "non-homer" right. Dude has only started for 2 years "read best years you referred to" he has never had lower that a passer rating of 97.5 and he has a winning record; it what you consider a more "forgiving" division (whatever that means). 

(08-04-2017, 01:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So a winning record and a big contract?


If you want to hold the fact that his team was too stupid to start him until the last two years; I suppose that's your "non-homer" right. Dude has only started for 2 years "read best years you referred to" he has never had lower that a passer rating of 97.5 and he has a winning record; it what you consider a more "forgiving" division (whatever that means). 

Cousin is behind in Dalton in my evaluation at this time.. could change after this year but I still have Dalton higher than Cousin

(08-04-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Show me the list of articles that mention Cousins as an MVP candidate in 2015.

There's plenty that mention Dalton, often in the top 5.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/18167083/kirk-cousins-top-four-long-shot-mvp-candidates-2016-nfl-season

So me one that list Andy as a candidate this year (The year we are voting on).


Never mind: Told myself I was going to stay out of the debate. Back to all the QBs that are worse than Andy......

(08-04-2017, 01:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/18167083/kirk-cousins-top-four-long-shot-mvp-candidates-2016-nfl-season

So me one that list Andy as a candidate this year (The year we are voting on).


Never mind: Told myself I was going to stay out of the debate. Back to all the QBs that are worse than Andy......

I though this was a poll you started, not a debate.. so with that said the poll sure seems to put Andy in the 6 to 13 range pretty strongly

(08-04-2017, 12:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Hmm.

Cousins has a losing record as starter (19-21-1)
Can't convince a team that's been without a QB for decades to commit
5 years, no playoff wins (pretty important stat to some)
And his best 2 years (99.3 rating) are pretty equal to Dalton's last 2 (98.1) while having a much cleaner pocket in a more forgiving division.

But yeah. It must be the homer thing.

You forgot that Cousins has had an insane supporting staff around him too. Garcon, DeSean Jackson, Jordan Reed, Jamison Crowder, Vernis Davis, and a decent running game. Cousins is pretty good, but if Dalton had that supporting staff he would have had another year like 2015.

(08-04-2017, 01:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/18167083/kirk-cousins-top-four-long-shot-mvp-candidates-2016-nfl-season

So me one that list Andy as a candidate this year (The year we are voting on).


Never mind: Told myself I was going to stay out of the debate. Back to all the QBs that are worse than Andy......

The key words for that list is "long shot". He wasn't even in the top 10 candidates in the poll that they had linked to that article.

I said 11-13.

I do think that is pretty good considering a few things. For starters, he started his career off with a new NFL oc coupled with Marvinball. Not only that, he had to completely change his form of play from TCU. He went from a spread offense airing it out a lot to a much more conservative pro west coast offense that relied more on the run game and the defense. And he still produced solid numbers in the regular season. But imo that hindered his growth during those first years, because I felt in those playoff games he was a square peg in the round hole, playing a style he just wasnt as good at back then in those playoff games yet was forced on him.

But nonetheless it has taken him a few years to get a west coast style of an offense down, and he has done a good job at that. Then add in the fact he is now on his 3rd coordinator who was new at it last year with Marvin still as head coach, I think there is still room for improvement for him to eventually be a top 5sh qb, but I dont know under the current coaching staff if that is possible.

(08-04-2017, 01:42 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I though this was a poll you started, not a debate.. so with that said the poll sure seems to put Andy in the 6 to 13 range pretty strongly

I agree. That why I said I will stay out of it. Just seen a lot of "adjustable" criteria. I recently learned Contract plays a role.

(08-04-2017, 01:59 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: The key words for that list is "long shot". He wasn't even in the top 10 candidates in the poll that they had linked to that article.

Where was Andy on the list?

(08-04-2017, 02:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree. That why I said I will stay out of it. Just seen a lot of "adjustable" criteria. I recently learned Contract plays a role.

I have not.. sure you going to have an outliner or two here and there but i have seen very limit comments on using "contracts" as part of rating.. Also those outliners won;t cause much shift in a poll if it has a decent sample size.