(08-14-2017, 08:12 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: LOL
Yes I question your credibility and expertise versus a pro coach. Yes, that makes every you post questionable in itself in my opinion.

Then get off the internet?


I mean I don't know what you expect to do on a football forum if not discuss football.

Does this mean you've agreed with every decision that every exec and coach in the NFL makes because they know more than you?

(08-14-2017, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well man, here's the thing.  We host this board so that people can discuss, debate, and otherwise express their opinions on anything Bengals.  Some times these debates and discussions can get rather in depth, and sometimes heated.  Doesn't make one right or wrong, just fans of the same team seeing issues from different points of view.  

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no coach.  However, the older I get, the more critical of an eye I have on certain fundamental elements of players technique.  I'm getting really good at catching on to faulty physical traits, but not nearly as good as articulating them as the OP.  It's not as I'm siding with OP because I have a personal vengeance on Ogbuehi, but rather I agree with his assessment of his play.

We all want the Bengals to win, am I right?  Some of us just get concerned when our 1st round LT prospect is still looking like garbage, heading into his 3rd season.

Bravo Sunset, exactly

My passion above all others is for the Bengals to win ! The BENGALS is where my true loyalty lies. It's not to player A or B

We all have our favorites for whatever reasons. We all have players we don't really like (pac-man) for whatever reasons. 

My concern about Ogbuehi isn't hate, or my mind's made up, or I want to see him fail so I can pat myself on the back. I'd love nothing more for Ogbuehi to come out the next game and pancake every DE he faces on every play. I'd love it greatly !!

And I'd stand up and say oh boy I was wrong about him, and be pickled tink to do it. However;

I'm greatly concerned there is no fixing him and I'm even more afraid knowing ML and PA's history, they'll be to stubborn to admit Ogbuehi isn't cutting it and the team especially Andy, AJ, Geno, Vontaze, Carlos etc. will pay for it in another lost season.

How many do they have left ?

RIP Andy Dalton. There is no way in hell this garbage of a player will keep Amdy Dalton upright all year. If any of those were 5 or 7 step drops rip . Og cost us last year im afraid he might do it again.

(08-14-2017, 08:15 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: RIP Andy Dalton. There is no way in hell this garbage of a player will keep Amdy Dalton upright all year.  If any of those were 5 or 7 step drops rip .  Og cost us last year im afraid he might do it again.

At least we got Driskell.  He can run away from trouble and even score.

Getting back on topic, I hope at least some of ced's issues are correctable by week 1 and that he can be competent. It would be a shame to have to rework an entire offense to cover for one guy.

It also shoots holes in not trading ajm because we have to have a good backup qb but totally ignore having a good backup plan at lt.

Front office fail if this doesn't work out


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Let's try to keep it friendly, and about football in Jungle Noise.

(08-14-2017, 07:40 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Well it seems like your question was rhetorical because you decided my answer already. Anyone else see the irony here?

What prediction am I stating as fact? 
About if he was good people will stop? 
People ragged on Boling early too. Then he started playing better football. 
And they stopped. 

If he becomes a serviceable LT who doesn't require the offense to cater to him, I will say I was wrong. But if we spend all year doing this dink and dunk thing to hide him and he's still showing these problems I won't be wrong even if the offense finds some success, because he's still hindering the offense. 

If the offense moves the ball even if it has to cater to him, so be it.  Teams have won SB's with suspect lines.  I predict he will get better.  And i feel we have enough dynamic weapons and a wily enough QB to get them the ball and score and keep himself from getting killed.  It's gonna be okay.  It won't be like having Whit out there but you can still win.

(08-14-2017, 08:35 PM)McC Wrote: If the offense moves the ball even if it has to cater to him, so be it.  Teams have won SB's with suspect lines.  I predict he will get better.  And i feel we have enough dynamic weapons and a wily enough QB to get them the ball and score and keep himself from getting killed.  It's gonna be okay.  It won't be like having Whit out there but you can still win.

Yes you can but it puts incredible stress on other players. 

We don't have an elite QB to cover it and that is what concerns me. 
When the pressure is on and we need 10+ yards at a time, with time in the pocket for a play to develop, can it even get off the ground or will it be out simply because of who our LT is? That is what concerns me. 

(08-14-2017, 08:35 PM)McC Wrote: If the offense moves the ball even if it has to cater to him, so be it.  Teams have won SB's with suspect lines.  I predict he will get better.  And i feel we have enough dynamic weapons and a wily enough QB to get them the ball and score and keep himself from getting killed.  It's gonna be okay.  It won't be like having Whit out there but you can still win.

I really, really hope you're right.

(08-14-2017, 08:39 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Yes you can but it puts incredible stress on other players. 

We don't have an elite QB to cover it and that is what concerns me. 
When the pressure is on and we need 10+ yards at a time, with time in the pocket for a play to develop, can it even get off the ground or will it be out simply because of who our LT is? That is what concerns me. 

You don't necessarily have to have to have an elite QB.  A good QB who is very smart will do.  This is a thing we have.

Not in any way insinuating the offense will be a juggernaut.  But the defense can keep us in games.  And we have some very good catch and run types, so you can still get big plays without holding the ball.

We can win with the people we have.  If a way to find a veteran who would be better happens, by all means do it.  But this group can win.  May not be pretty but it doesn't have to be.

(08-14-2017, 06:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I'll try to see if this works since I did it all on Twitter and I've been away from the forum game.

Hands are low and late wide. This gives the DE his chest and the ability to dictate the play. 

Cant give up ypur chest this easily pic.twitter.com/UPicwq3gBS

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Here you see a bad set first and foremost. It's shallow and the DE just explodes beyond his set. Then you see his hips turn open giving the DE the edge and the win on the rep. Luckily every pass is designed to be a quick fire pass and McCarron fires to the underneath. He has no room to drop back or move. 

Doesnt get deep enough. Turns and opens. Quick throw saves it. pic.twitter.com/ksloVZfuzW

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

In this rep his first move is up and then left. The DE just runs around him. Again, quick throw and flag bail out an awful rep. 

This is bad pic.twitter.com/otemkMSWbt

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

This is possibly his best pass pro rep. The DE is indecisive about attacking and ***** foots around before trying to bull. Hands sill are wide and late so the DE gets his hands in. Doesn't impact the play but it is bad form and a repetitive issue you see in his game. 

Lack of decisiveness from DE helps here. Better feet but hands still way too wide and DE gets his hands in. pic.twitter.com/5srmJqnfpo

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

This is his best block of the game in the run or pass. He gets the double off then hits the incoming defender. Now he needs to turn and attack up field so he is not in the way of the RB and to possibly break it wide. 

His best block and its a good one .  Now get up field. Dont stand in the hole. pic.twitter.com/99jDx2OJ1U

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Solid block as he stalemates with the DE. 89 takes out Boling's legs on what should have been a huge gain. 

Stalemate. Hands still wide. Get those in and you can drive... pic.twitter.com/eXbC1eJTSS

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Another shallow drop with his hands low and wide. He's late firing them and the DE gets in his chest and drives him to the QB. Luckily the throw is quick. 

Hands slow and wide. DE gets inside and drives back. Quick throw design but bad form could be disastrous if we need a longer play pic.twitter.com/2pjNThTLLZ

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Tries for the Tyron slingshot block but just whiffs. No first step. Lifts his foot and puts it back down. Gains no ground and the DE burns him. Be decisive. 

I mean. pic.twitter.com/TZsHJMc8Nh

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Another save by way of quick release. There's no time for the QB to make anything happen. Everything is going to come from the skill guys. He bites on the inside fake. Can't recover to the edge. Hips turn open. 

Caught flat footed. Fell for inside move fake. Hips open. Beat. pic.twitter.com/v1stHuqYW8

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Tale of two tackles same play as above. Watch Fisher and Ced here. Ced is late and bites on the fake. Fisher gets in his set then fires the hands. Ced is too passive and gets caught flat. 

Just watch the difference in how they move off the snap and where their hands go. pic.twitter.com/b6hzureSa9

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

This is the new offense. Dump and chase at OT. No long developing plays. Short sets and hope the ball is out for YAC. 

Quick throw bail out. This is the scheme. Its never intended to be an extended play. Big hopes pinned on YAC pic.twitter.com/uqQlJuN7eN

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Again, passive in nature hurts him. Attack. OL play is not a passive act. Could have been a great block. 

OL play is not passive. ATTACK pic.twitter.com/pM4A5VIs4k

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

This is a very good down block with Boling. He pulls off to the LB. It's aggressive and has a decisive nature to it. 

Very good double with Boling. pic.twitter.com/0Oel2aziWc

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

Watch how long the DE is engaged before Ced tries to grab on the outside and is immediately dismissed. 

One more pic.twitter.com/fNli0GuP0Q

— Ryan (@RoyleRedlegs) August 14, 2017

I feel like this collection shows the issues with Ced the best. 
I could post every play but it's repetitive at a certain point. 
His best plays came on zone blocks where he was doubling down or the DE crashed hard. These play into his strengths as a run blocker. His passiveness with his hands is a fatal flaw. He's so late and slow to engage he's giving up his chest or his edge every time. 
He's not getting into good sets, his hand placement is still very bad, he takes bad first steps and he's wildly passive to the point of being a liability. 

When he actually attacks, he's capable of making blocks. But it's so few and far between and surrounded by piss poor technique that it's seeming more and more unlikely he'll be anything more than what he is now. 

You were a bit rough on him on at least a couple of those clips. KUDOS for taking the time though. 

I don't disagree at all that he still has plenty of work to do. Work that you really wouldn't or shouldn't expect from a 3rd year 1st rd pick. As negative (or realistic as i like to put it) as i've been with this team (mostly coaching and FO) i see an improvement and room and ability for more improvement from him. 

I don't like to use injuries or lack of training camp/practice etc as an excuse, so i won't. He was atrocious last year. He would come out of his stance and just lean into guys like he didn't even have a set of arms and hands and he would get thrown around like a rag doll. 

As much as everyone loves to drool over Whitworth, and he was/is a great T, you can pull up any tape and find multiple times his technique was bad. Especially getting his hands wide. 

Bottom line is, he's who the Bengals are going with and he looks much better than last year. The really scary part is, when they get into the dregs of the regular season and guys get tired, if you have bad habits or muscle memory, that stuff will start to show up. 

After one silly preseason game, adding in how bad he was last year, i still feel like he has a chance to continue to get better. Sometimes it's technique schmechnique. Guys can get the job done even if they don't get it done right. It's not what anyone wants, but it's what matters. Win the snap any way possible. 

P.S. Keep in mind, you posted 13 (14 but i think one was a dupe showing him and Fisher for comparison--even though they faced different types of rushes  ). That's half his snaps for the game. No biggie though. I'm glad you took the time to do this and i appreciate the opportunity to look for something that i wouldn't normally look for. Now it's on to game 2.

(08-14-2017, 07:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: With good reason.  

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Maybe so, but i still see the needle pointing up, comparing where he was to where he is. 

(08-14-2017, 06:20 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I literally post video evidence and you stick your head in the sand still. Unbelievable. 

His first steps are not decent. At least 2x he didn't even make one. And other times he's so shallow that the DE has the edge before the ball is to the QB. That is a problem.


You don't have a problem with him exposing his chest and allowing defenders to dictate the play? Okay. That's good for you but you won't win many games with that. He's not strong enough to consistently be wide and muscle guys. Very few are. 

Yes we do not know and I even said it has been designed that way. He's not pushing them wide though. He's just not engaging them and hoping the ball is out. If the play IS NOT quick, he's never in position to help extend the play because he's giving up the edge automatically.  

You are missing the nuance and the reasons why this is a problem. 

This is a problem because it means we CANNOT do anything but these quick plays. 
If you choose to ignore that and think it's fine the QB can't drop in the pocket or can't extend a play that's fine. But don't complain if we struggle to throw deep or have a lot of turnovers when defenders sit on the routes because they know it has to be a quick throw. You can't have both things. 

Well sorry I'll stick  with my coaching analysis  and I was happy to hear Lapham someone who probably knows the game much s better than both of us that he played decent and took a step forward good enough for me the great part is this debate will move on to the next game. 

The OC is going to call games according to their strengths and weaknesses. The Bengals will run the ball a lot and make quick short passes this year. My hope is that by mid year the OL will improve enough for some longer passes. Look for Andy to throw many early interceptions because he won't have time to throw. This year is more on poor managerial decisions than anything.

(08-14-2017, 08:39 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Yes you can but it puts incredible stress on other players. 

We don't have an elite QB to cover it and that is what concerns me. 
When the pressure is on and we need 10+ yards at a time, with time in the pocket for a play to develop, can it even get off the ground or will it be out simply because of who our LT is? That is what concerns me. 

I think that you make some valid points.  That said, some of this seems like nit picking.

I think you're spot on about his hand placement.  That is something he definitely needs to work on.

There are some times in the run game that he seems a bit tentative.  You'd like to see him finish with a mean streak.

I think you're off on the shallow drops.  The T knows what the play call is.  If the play is a 3 step drop, you want to take a shallow drop to bait the defender into taking the long way around the outside, because the only way you're giving up a sack is if you get beaten quickly inside.  Baiting the defender outside also gets him out of the passing lane so he can't bat the ball down.  On the majority of those, he baits the defender outside and washes them out past the QB and out of the play, which frankly a lot of LT's do on those short set passes.

Because of that, you can't really draw a conclusion on what's going to happen on 7 step drops and plays where the QB has to hold the ball.  Those plays aren't blocked the same.  Obviously, the gameplan was to make it as easy on the OL as they could, but as preseason goes along, we should see them take some more shots and get a better idea.

I think the play pointing out the difference between Fisher and Og is a bit unfair.  The TE on the right side forces the DE a bit wider and gives Fisher extra time to set up, and he still gets pushed closer to the QB than Ced.

Man...everyone is so eager to pass judgement on Ced and other players early in preseason. The truth is, his regular season play will matter.

You're not going to get a read on any player seeing just a quarter of play.

(08-14-2017, 09:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think that you make some valid points.  That said, some of this seems like nit picking.

I think you're spot on about his hand placement.  That is something he definitely needs to work on.

There are some times in the run game that he seems a bit tentative.  You'd like to see him finish with a mean streak.

I think you're off on the shallow drops.  The T knows what the play call is.  If the play is a 3 step drop, you want to take a shallow drop to bait the defender into taking the long way around the outside, because the only way you're giving up a sack is if you get beaten quickly inside.  Baiting the defender outside also gets him out of the passing lane so he can't bat the ball down.  On the majority of those, he baits the defender outside and washes them out past the QB and out of the play, which frankly a lot of LT's do on those short set passes.

Because of that, you can't really draw a conclusion on what's going to happen on 7 step drops and plays where the QB has to hold the ball.  Those plays aren't blocked the same.  Obviously, the gameplan was to make it as easy on the OL as they could, but as preseason goes along, we should see them take some more shots and get a better idea.

I think the play pointing out the difference between Fisher and Og is a bit unfair.  The TE on the right side forces the DE a bit wider and gives Fisher extra time to set up, and he still gets pushed closer to the QB than Ced.

There's a difference between a shallow drop and missing your landmarks. A shallow drop still has to be deep enough to stay square.
His steps are not putting him in a position to win off the snap. He's stepping almost laterally at times and that already puts him in a bad spot. He's lost off the snap if he does that. 
He's constantly having to turn and chase. That's not getting to the right spot. 

You can draw conclusions because these are not issues you see with other tackles in short drops (Fisher) 

And yes the DE was further out (by a very small amount, both DE's lined up at 9) but that's all the more reason Ced should have been ready to punch. But he didn't. He kept his hands low and didn't deliver a punch. Fisher did. It's not unfair to compare their technique. It should be virtually the same regardless of the DE alignment when it comes to your hands. 
If you need the DE extra wide to have time to punch, that's a BIG problem. 

(08-14-2017, 08:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You were a bit rough on him on at least a couple of those clips. KUDOS for taking the time though. 

I don't disagree at all that he still has plenty of work to do. Work that you really wouldn't or shouldn't expect from a 3rd year 1st rd pick. As negative (or realistic as i like to put it) as i've been with this team (mostly coaching and FO) i see an improvement and room and ability for more improvement from him. 

I don't like to use injuries or lack of training camp/practice etc as an excuse, so i won't. He was atrocious last year. He would come out of his stance and just lean into guys like he didn't even have a set of arms and hands and he would get thrown around like a rag doll. 

As much as everyone loves to drool over Whitworth, and he was/is a great T, you can pull up any tape and find multiple times his technique was bad. Especially getting his hands wide. 

Bottom line is, he's who the Bengals are going with and he looks much better than last year. The really scary part is, when they get into the dregs of the regular season and guys get tired, if you have bad habits or muscle memory, that stuff will start to show up. 

After one silly preseason game, adding in how bad he was last year, i still feel like he has a chance to continue to get better. Sometimes it's technique schmechnique. Guys can get the job done even if they don't get it done right. It's not what anyone wants, but it's what matters. Win the snap any way possible. 

P.S. Keep in mind, you posted 13 (14 but i think one was a dupe showing him and Fisher for comparison--even though they faced different types of rushes  ). That's half his snaps for the game. No biggie though. I'm glad you took the time to do this and i appreciate the opportunity to look for something that i wouldn't normally look for. Now it's on to game 2.

Which clips were I too rough on? 

Whitworth was an exception not the rule. He's a freak. And his technique with his feet was damn near flawless. He'd hit his landmarks in his sleep. 
He get wide but he'd also work his hands in. Ced does not have the benefit having the strength of Whitworth. 

What specifically looks better though? The only difference is what he's being asked to do...which is limiting what we see from the offense. 


You can look at his college tape and see the same issues in his hands, passiveness and sets. 
You see it in his tape as a pro. 
You see it now. 

That is why it matters. 
It's preseason, so results don't matter. But technique still does. Him giving up 0 sacks doesn't matter when you realize the lengths they took to make things so. 

(08-14-2017, 09:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Man...everyone is so eager to pass judgement on Ced and other players early in preseason. The truth is, his regular season play will matter.

You're not going to get a read on any player seeing just a quarter of play.

What of his play in college and last year?
Does that not matter?

Does it matter that these issues were issues in college and last year? 

(08-14-2017, 08:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You amuse me with your arrogance. No fan knows more about OL play in pro football than his professional coach who teaches them the technique to use which changes depending on the play call so not as generic as you want to make it out to be. One size does not fit all in the case. You make some valid points, but many points you made were on assumption. not facts.

As for quick throws, a guy named Tom Brady has won multiple Super Bowls leading the league in average release time. Is it because of bad OL play or because of designed scheme that BB does it year after year?

(08-14-2017, 08:03 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Not being arrogant. Just actually talking football with football terms and actual technique. 
I know how that might SEEM arrogant but...it really isn't. 

All I can say is WOW.

Royle is only critiquing his technique. 

I think it's pretty obvious.

Paul Alexander could be the greatest teacher of technique but if the player isn't conveying it to actual play... then what?!?

I guess we should just put on the blinders and take the blue pill?