(08-18-2017, 08:15 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: What makes you think Elliott is a shitty kicker?  One bad practice?   And why don't you think Simmons knows more about our kicking needs than you do? He drafted Elliott for a reason.

Simmons is one of our best coaches. Maybe our best. Elliot is struggling though. He has had more than just one bad practice. All I have been hearing is Elliot struggling in practice. Hopefully things will turn around for him, but it doesn't look like he will win the kicking competition if he keeps doing what he's been doing.

(08-18-2017, 08:13 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: What we're getting with Bullock is an average kicker who hasn't played a full season since 2014. Looks at his stats.  They aren't great.    I would rather go with the talented rookie.  If we cut a potential star and he is picked up by someone else, it will be a huge mistake.

What "talented rookie/potential star", where? I don't see it at all. We already made a huge mistake by taking Elliott over Gonzalez. I figured you of all people would be beyond pissed about that, you were pushing for Gonzalez on draft day more than anyone else here. 

And trust me, I'm not saying Bullock is a hall of famer or anything. In fact, I'm not incredibly happy he's an option either. But if you been paying attention to the reports coming out of camp, you'll see that Bullock has consistently been the better kicker. Elliott has been consistently inconsistent. Yes, Bullock has been average over the past several years. But if he's outperforming Elliott, what does that tell you? Kicker struggles absolutely killed this team last year, I'd rather not go down that road again. Unfortunately, since we have little choice I'd rather go with the lesser of two evils.

But worry not. As I said, I see no way in hell this front office spends nearly $300k to cut a fifth round kicker. Your kicker crush is safe regardless of how much he struggles. I see a problem with that. Most people here do. But the people that count likely don't. This kicker competition is a facade. 

Why are people creaming themselves over Gonzalez?

What has he done in camp and such to prove he's so much better? Just because he was rated higher? Who cares, its completely irrelevant to anything.

When the season starts and these guys are kicking for real, you'll see; I will thoroughly enjoy watching Gonzalez kick in Pitt and in the snow.

(08-18-2017, 09:42 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Man...we should have drafted Gonzalez. The OCD had to be a huge factor for the Bengals not taking him.

That's a tough call where obviously hindsight is 20/20.

How has Gonzalez been doing at Browns camp? Has he had any misses?

Regardless, I care much more about Elliott's misses in a game vs practice. Maybe he's trying to tweak his mechanics in practice and therefore causing some more frequent misses. He'll get enough opportunities over the remaining three preseason games to give us a good idea of his performance.

(08-18-2017, 10:29 AM)ochocincos Wrote: How has Gonzalez been doing at Browns camp? Has he had any misses?

Regardless, I care much more about Elliott's misses in a game vs practice. Maybe he's trying to tweak his mechanics in practice and therefore causing some more frequent misses. He'll get enough opportunities over the remaining three preseason games to give us a good idea of his performance.

He's been perfect at least a few days in practice. 

I suppose this is all very early indications. If anything, I want Jake Elliott to be shitty in practice and good in games. Hopefully that's what this is. There is no way I'm OK with us taking Randy into the regular season. We know that he cannot perform under pressure no matter how good he is in practice.  

(08-18-2017, 08:15 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: What makes you think Elliott is a shitty kicker?  One bad practice?   And why don't you think Simmons knows more about our kicking needs than you do? He drafted Elliott for a reason.

I'll answer for them:  Elliot is a "weak" kicker for two reasons to most on this board:

1)  ESPN.com shows that Elliot only made 77% of his field goals... that's pretty bad.  In grade school... that would be a 'C'.  The college goal posts are also several feet wider than the NFL, and it's significantly less pressure.  Heck, Nugent made more kicks than that each year.  The PAT stat is also meaningless for the NFL beyond 2015-2016, because we are comparing the collegiate PAT spot that is equivalent to that of ~17 yard field goal to the new NFL spot of ~33 yard field goal.  

2)  Elliot is missing kicks in games and practices that he should make.  We probably would have been better off bringing in a 2nd NFL-proven kicker to compete with Bullock (or drafting Zane Gonzalez, the guy that was clearly the best kicker in the draft)

Now that we are several weeks into it and Week 1 is quickly approaching, the numbers are telling a clear story... but emotions and an unwillingness to admit that all teams make mistakes in the draft may cloud the results of the competition.

(08-18-2017, 09:54 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: What "talented rookie/potential star", where? I don't see it at all. We already made a huge mistake by taking Elliott over Gonzalez. I figured you of all people would be beyond pissed about that, you were pushing for Gonzalez on draft day more than anyone else here. 

And trust me, I'm not saying Bullock is a hall of famer or anything. In fact, I'm not incredibly happy he's an option either. But if you been paying attention to the reports coming out of camp, you'll see that Bullock has consistently been the better kicker. Elliott has been consistently inconsistent. Yes, Bullock has been average over the past several years. But if he's outperforming Elliott, what does that tell you? Kicker struggles absolutely killed this team last year, I'd rather not go down that road again. Unfortunately, since we have little choice I'd rather go with the lesser of two evils.

But worry not. As I said, I see no way in hell this front office spends nearly $300k to cut a fifth round kicker. Your kicker crush is safe regardless of how much he struggles. I see a problem with that. Most people here do. But the people that count likely don't. This kicker competition is a facade. 

Where is the proof that we made a mistake taking Elliott over Gonzalez?? 

(08-18-2017, 10:55 AM)BoBengal Wrote: I'll answer for them:  Elliot is a "weak" kicker for two reasons to most on this board:

1)  ESPN.com shows that Elliot only made 77% of his field goals... that's pretty bad.  In grade school... that would be a 'C'.  The college goal posts are also several feet wider than the NFL, and it's significantly less pressure.  Heck, Nugent made more kicks than that each year.  The PAT stat is also meaningless for the NFL beyond 2015-2016, because we are comparing the collegiate PAT spot that is equivalent to that of ~17 yard field goal to the new NFL spot of ~33 yard field goal.  

2)  Elliot is missing kicks in games and practices that he should make.  We probably would have been better off bringing in a 2nd NFL-proven kicker to compete with Bullock (or drafting Zane Gonzalez, the guy that was clearly the best kicker in the draft)

Now that we are several weeks into it and Week 1 is quickly approaching, the numbers are telling a clear story... but emotions and an unwillingness to admit that all teams make mistakes in the draft may cloud the results of the competition.

What game has he missed kicks in?

I think Robert Aygueo is an example of why you simply cannot go by College accolades. I know it is crazy talk, but let's see what they do in games before we consider Elliott a bust and Zane the GOAT.

(08-18-2017, 09:54 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: What "talented rookie/potential star", where? I don't see it at all. We already made a huge mistake by taking Elliott over Gonzalez. I figured you of all people would be beyond pissed about that, you were pushing for Gonzalez on draft day more than anyone else here. 

And trust me, I'm not saying Bullock is a hall of famer or anything. In fact, I'm not incredibly happy he's an option either. But if you been paying attention to the reports coming out of camp, you'll see that Bullock has consistently been the better kicker. Elliott has been consistently inconsistent. Yes, Bullock has been average over the past several years. But if he's outperforming Elliott, what does that tell you? Kicker struggles absolutely killed this team last year, I'd rather not go down that road again. Unfortunately, since we have little choice I'd rather go with the lesser of two evils.

But worry not. As I said, I see no way in hell this front office spends nearly $300k to cut a fifth round kicker. Your kicker crush is safe regardless of how much he struggles. I see a problem with that. Most people here do. But the people that count likely don't. This kicker competition is a facade. 

I'm not disappointed at all.  Simmons is possibly our best coach and knows what he is doing.  I changed my mind about Gonzalez after seeing Simmons' explanation, which makes sense to me.  He is not used to kicking in a cold climate and Elliott did better in tryouts.  Elliott is a rookie and is learning.  I hope they choose him.  I do not think we will be disappointed. If they choose the average to below average Bullock, we'll have to watch Elliott making big kicks for another team.  

(08-18-2017, 11:45 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think Robert Aygueo is an example of why you simply cannot go by College accolades. I know it is crazy talk, but let's see what they do in games before we consider Elliott a bust and Zane the GOAT.

Let's wait til it gets cold and snowy in Cleveland before we crown Gonzalez.

(08-18-2017, 11:41 AM)sandwedge Wrote: What game has he missed kicks in?

He hasn't.

(08-18-2017, 10:55 AM)BoBengal Wrote: I'll answer for them:  Elliot is a "weak" kicker for two reasons to most on this board:

1)  ESPN.com shows that Elliot only made 77% of his field goals... that's pretty bad.  In grade school... that would be a 'C'.  The college goal posts are also several feet wider than the NFL, and it's significantly less pressure.  Heck, Nugent made more kicks than that each year.  The PAT stat is also meaningless for the NFL beyond 2015-2016, because we are comparing the collegiate PAT spot that is equivalent to that of ~17 yard field goal to the new NFL spot of ~33 yard field goal.  

2)  Elliot is missing kicks in games and practices that he should make.  We probably would have been better off bringing in a 2nd NFL-proven kicker to compete with Bullock (or drafting Zane Gonzalez, the guy that was clearly the best kicker in the draft)

Now that we are several weeks into it and Week 1 is quickly approaching, the numbers are telling a clear story... but emotions and an unwillingness to admit that all teams make mistakes in the draft may cloud the results of the competition.

He played in one game and missed no kicks.  In fact, he put them straight down the middle.  

(08-18-2017, 10:55 AM)BoBengal Wrote: I'll answer for them:  Elliot is a "weak" kicker for two reasons to most on this board:

1)  ESPN.com shows that Elliot only made 77% of his field goals... that's pretty bad.  In grade school... that would be a 'C'.  The college goal posts are also several feet wider than the NFL, and it's significantly less pressure.  Heck, Nugent made more kicks than that each year.  The PAT stat is also meaningless for the NFL beyond 2015-2016, because we are comparing the collegiate PAT spot that is equivalent to that of ~17 yard field goal to the new NFL spot of ~33 yard field goal.  

2)  Elliot is missing kicks in games and practices that he should make.  We probably would have been better off bringing in a 2nd NFL-proven kicker to compete with Bullock (or drafting Zane Gonzalez, the guy that was clearly the best kicker in the draft)

Now that we are several weeks into it and Week 1 is quickly approaching, the numbers are telling a clear story... but emotions and an unwillingness to admit that all teams make mistakes in the draft may cloud the results of the competition.

You really cherry pick those numbers.  Bullock's overall COLLEGE stats were 78.8%.  Elliott's were 78%. overall.  Gonzalez's were 82%.  None of those numbers are stellar.  Elliott had a bad season his sophomore year 65% which brought down his overall numbers or they would have been higher than Bullock's instead of almost the same. I'm not a college football follower so I don't know why the kicker stats are low for ALL OF THEM, but I'm sure someone will know. Stephen Gostkowski is a great kicker. His overall college stats were lower than Elliott's. They were 76.1% And to be clear, the stat you quoted was for field goal kicks only.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I wonder of any of Elliotts misses in practice have anything to do with tweeking technique.

(08-18-2017, 06:47 PM)McC Wrote: He played in one game and missed no kicks.  In fact, he put them straight down the middle.  

You are correct, he did make his only field goal attempt during the single game.  That should have read "scrimmage."  

Correction:  He played in (1) scrimmage on Family Day with us watching and missed a pair kicks... one was a PAT.

Next time, I'll proofread better! Muchos gracias.

Either way, we may want to start looking more seriously at Elliot as "trade bait?"  

(08-19-2017, 12:07 PM)BoBengal Wrote: You are correct, he did make his only field goal attempt during the single game.  That should have read "scrimmage."  

Correction:  He played in (1) scrimmage on Family Day with us watching and missed a pair kicks... one was a PAT.

Next time, I'll proofread better!  Muchos gracias.

Either way, we may want to start looking more seriously at Elliot as "trade bait?"  

Who trades for kickers?

(08-19-2017, 12:21 PM)McC Wrote: Who trades for kickers?

Tampa bay? At least for the pick to take a kicker


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk