(08-22-2017, 12:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: I sure expected more out of Thompson than what he showed. 

Still and Thompson were both very disappointing.

(08-22-2017, 12:32 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is always a fan's choice to abandon the team for any reason. But demands from fans will fall on deaf ears until they have no fan base. Right now, they do still have an acceptable fan base. The idea every player needs to be top 15 in their position for us to be successful is far reaching to me. I also don't buy we are in a small window. QB's play to they are 40 today. AJ can easily play 5 more years, but even if he does not, most teams with elite receivers never seem to win it all. The best WR on the NFL in my opinion is A. Brown and while the Steelers are highly competitive yearly, they have not been Super Bowl contenders each year. 

the 2017 draft picks, the 2018 draft picks and so on are our future as this team chooses to build primarily through the draft. Our OL is a major worry of us all right now, that  is the bad news. The good news is these guys are extremely young and just maybe they do develop into a very good unit over time. I look at our defense the past couple of years and guys have not stepped up in a big way to help Atkins, Dunlap and Burfict thus we are not an elite defense. An elite defense can win championships still with an average offense. So, we need to either be very good on both offense and defense or elite on one of them and then average to good with the other to start winning playoff games and be a true Super Bowl contender.

Excellent points there.  You're exactly right.  They need to go all in on one or the other, or shore up some glaring weak spots across the board and become a good team all around.

(08-22-2017, 12:32 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is always a fan's choice to abandon the team for any reason. But demands from fans will fall on deaf ears until they have no fan base. Right now, they do still have an acceptable fan base. The idea every player needs to be top 15 in their position for us to be successful is far reaching to me. I also don't buy we are in a small window. QB's play to they are 40 today. AJ can easily play 5 more years, but even if he does not, most teams with elite receivers never seem to win it all. The best WR on the NFL in my opinion is A. Brown and while the Steelers are highly competitive yearly, they have not been Super Bowl contenders each year. 

the 2017 draft picks, the 2018 draft picks and so on are our future as this team chooses to build primarily through the draft. Our OL is a major worry of us all right now, that  is the bad news. The good news is these guys are extremely young and just maybe they do develop into a very good unit over time. I look at our defense the past couple of years and guys have not stepped up in a big way to help Atkins, Dunlap and Burfict thus we are not an elite defense. An elite defense can win championships still with an average offense. So, we need to either be very good on both offense and defense or elite on one of them and then average to good with the other to start winning playoff games and be a true Super Bowl contender.

Agreed. For me though (and maybe this is my flaw), I believe a player has fully grown after their third year. I don't see many players suddenly improving a lot in their fourth year or later. It's why I've been harder on Bodine than most. Bodine has had three years of full season reps and now into his fourth offseason and he's still bottom tier. I think he's capped out in terms of his potential.

I agree with you that this team's philosophy (at least in the Dalton era) has been to try to build through the draft vs FA. However, there have been quite a few whiffs that have derailed the seasons so far. IMO if the team really put that much stake into the draft, they would invest into more (and arguably some better?) scouting and coaching. This FO and these coaches seem to have had a "type" of player they are always going after, and they've seemed too stubborn to change that philosophy for years even when there's been multiple instances to prove that philosophy is not working and in some cases hasn't worked for quite some time.

In recent memory, here have been the "types" of players the Bengals have pursued:
- Big, long power 4-3 base DEs
- Athletic OL
- Big, somewhat slow LBs that are predominantly run stuffers but struggle in coverage
- DBs that have some experience defending the run rather than ball hawks

EDIT - At least in regards to the DEs and LBs, this team seems to have finally taken a risk and done what many of us fans have asked for, and that's attempting to add some speed rushers and faster LBs that are better in coverage. It's a bit too early to tell, but indications so far are that we fans barking for years about changing things up in those areas might actually have been right all along.

Listen, I know it's not realistic for every player to be a top 15 player. But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't strive to achieve it. The real issue is that this team seems to accept certain players/positions being a lower tier starter year after year without making any concerted effort to challenge said player to either vastly improve or risk losing his starting spot.

Now, some people (at least on these forums) seem to buy into the thinking that the Bengals staff knows their players better than we ever could because they have (much more) experience in football and are employed by the team whereas we are essentially "armchair quarterbacks". However, I believe that just because someone has more experience in a field or has worked for a certain company doesn't necessarily make them better than someone who hasn't. I very much believe some of our fellow board members would add value to the Bengals or whichever team that would employ them.

(08-22-2017, 12:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Still and Thompson were both very disappointing.

I know, and that plays into your points about the d line needing to be elite.  Looking back, had those two panned out, maybe older guys that were tailing off like Peko would have been gone sooner and the line would have been much better.  It sure looked like they were getting stocked up, but those two killed us.  I can't disagree with their thoughts on those two picks....who knew?  The issue I had was drafting Margus Hunt as early as they did.

(08-22-2017, 01:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: I know, and that plays into your points about the d line needing to be elite.  Looking back, had those two panned out, maybe older guys that were tailing off like Peko would have been gone sooner and the line would have been much better.  It sure looked like they were getting stocked up, but those two killed us.  I can't disagree with their thoughts on those two picks....who knew?  The issue I had was drafting Margus Hunt.

Fixed that last line for you

(08-22-2017, 12:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed. For me though (and maybe this is my flaw), I believe a player has fully grown after their third year. I don't see many players suddenly improving a lot in their fourth year or later. It's why I've been harder on Bodine than most. Bodine has had three years of full season reps and now into his fourth offseason and he's still bottom tier. I think he's capped out in terms of his potential.

I agree with you that this team's philosophy (at least in the Dalton era) has been to try to build through the draft vs FA. However, there have been quite a few whiffs that have derailed the seasons so far. IMO if the team really put that much stake into the draft, they would invest into more (and arguably some better?) scouting and coaching. This FO and these coaches seem to have had a "type" of player they are always going after, and they've seemed too stubborn to change that philosophy for years even when there's been multiple instances to prove that philosophy is not working and in some cases hasn't worked for quite some time.

In recent memory, here have been the "types" of players the Bengals have pursued:
- Big, long power 4-3 base DEs
- Athletic OL
- Big, somewhat slow LBs that are predominantly run stuffers but struggle in coverage
- DBs that have some experience defending the run rather than ball hawks

EDIT - At least in regards to the DEs and LBs, this team seems to have finally taken a risk and done what many of us fans have asked for, and that's attempting to add some speed rushers and faster LBs that are better in coverage. It's a bit too early to tell, but indications so far are that we fans barking for years about changing things up in those areas might actually have been right all along.

Listen, I know it's not realistic for every player to be a top 15 player. But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't strive to achieve it. The real issue is that this team seems to accept certain players/positions being a lower tier starter year after year without making any concerted effort to challenge said player to either vastly improve or risk losing his starting spot.

Now, some people (at least on these forums) seem to buy into the thinking that the Bengals staff knows their players better than we ever could because they have (much more) experience in football and are employed by the team whereas we are essentially "armchair quarterbacks". However, I believe that just because someone has more experience in a field or has worked for a certain company doesn't necessarily make them better than someone who hasn't. I very much believe some of our fellow board members would add value to the Bengals or whichever team that would employ them.

No doubt every coach wants a top 15 talent at every position and we do also. I think your 3 year window works for some positions, but not for all. There are a lot of OL who got better with age and experience. RB's seem to know within 3 years if they have starting ability or not. I have seen a lot of special teams players emerge later to start around the league. It is not uncommon for a QB to be a ton better in year 4 or 5 than they were in years 1-3 in my opinion.

I know Brown stated a long time ago he did not believe in paying guards big money nor based on how he drafts centers it seems either. But in the past he has paid big bucks to OT position. I guess he could change and pay the OT's less so he can pay the interior more, but in the end the Bengals have exceeded the salary cap requirement, not by a little, bit by a lot so MB is paying people. I don't disagree MB is loyal to a fault not restructuring or cutting players which would free up some cap space. I hear all the time fans criticize MB saying he is cheap, yet he pays a player sometimes millions the player no longer deserves. I am not sure how that can be ignored in any MB is cheap discussion. If he were cheap, it would be easy for him to cut ties or makes a player restructure and play for a lot less.

As for Bodine, he seems to be progressing each year so let's see if he progresses in his contract year 2017, he is a free agent next year. If I were the Bengals and thought he was progressing, I would try and lock him up right now for another 4 years at a very inexpensive price. The downside of waiting is if he does become a top 15 guy, then we likely lose him to FA where he signs for 6 to 8 million a year minimum. He makes less than $800K in 2017 I do believe. I know no one wants to out cap and spend into player ability conversations, but it is a big deal for the FO to make sound financial decisions not only for now but the long term.

(08-22-2017, 12:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed. For me though (and maybe this is my flaw), I believe a player has fully grown after their third year. I don't see many players suddenly improving a lot in their fourth year or later. It's why I've been harder on Bodine than most. Bodine has had three years of full season reps and now into his fourth offseason and he's still bottom tier. I think he's capped out in terms of his potential.

I agree with you that this team's philosophy (at least in the Dalton era) has been to try to build through the draft vs FA. However, there have been quite a few whiffs that have derailed the seasons so far. IMO if the team really put that much stake into the draft, they would invest into more (and arguably some better?) scouting and coaching. This FO and these coaches seem to have had a "type" of player they are always going after, and they've seemed too stubborn to change that philosophy for years even when there's been multiple instances to prove that philosophy is not working and in some cases hasn't worked for quite some time.

In recent memory, here have been the "types" of players the Bengals have pursued:
- Big, long power 4-3 base DEs
- Athletic OL
- Big, somewhat slow LBs that are predominantly run stuffers but struggle in coverage
- DBs that have some experience defending the run rather than ball hawks

EDIT - At least in regards to the DEs and LBs, this team seems to have finally taken a risk and done what many of us fans have asked for, and that's attempting to add some speed rushers and faster LBs that are better in coverage. It's a bit too early to tell, but indications so far are that we fans barking for years about changing things up in those areas might actually have been right all along.

Listen, I know it's not realistic for every player to be a top 15 player. But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't strive to achieve it. The real issue is that this team seems to accept certain players/positions being a lower tier starter year after year without making any concerted effort to challenge said player to either vastly improve or risk losing his starting spot.

Now, some people (at least on these forums) seem to buy into the thinking that the Bengals staff knows their players better than we ever could because they have (much more) experience in football and are employed by the team whereas we are essentially "armchair quarterbacks". However, I believe that just because someone has more experience in a field or has worked for a certain company doesn't necessarily make them better than someone who hasn't. I very much believe some of our fellow board members would add value to the Bengals or whichever team that would employ them.

This is a great post. 

Bengals DE's drafted 2009 to 2016: 

Michael Jonson - 6'7" 260+
Carlos Dunlap - 6'6" 290
Margus Hunt - 6'8" 277
Will Clarke - 6'6" 271


If you look at the top sack leaders from 2016, you have to get to the 13th rank to find a guy over 265 lbs. 
Most are in that 6'5 and under and 250-260 range in weight. 

And when you keep going back, outside of GREAT players like Watt, you notice that you will only see statistical outlying seasons from guys over those benchmarks. And even Watt doesn't rush from the edge. 

*I am really only looking at Edge rushers.*

They just haven't been drafting proficient pass rusher types before Lawson and Willis.

(08-22-2017, 01:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: I know, and that plays into your points about the d line needing to be elite.  Looking back, had those two panned out, maybe older guys that were tailing off like Peko would have been gone sooner and the line would have been much better.  It sure looked like they were getting stocked up, but those two killed us.  I can't disagree with their thoughts on those two picks....who knew?  The issue I had was drafting Margus Hunt as early as they did.

The thought of drafting Thompson and Still to possibly replace Peko (Thompson) had to be a possible plan of the FO. I know everyone says draft a center to replace Bodine, but in 2017 there was not close to a can't miss center in the draft like Pouncey. So, we draft a possibly Thompson/Still type center in round 2 (no Mixon) or round 3 (No Willis) with the hope the rookie beats out Bodine. My point is the draft was not the place the past 2 years to find a sure fire can't miss center prospect. So maybe they are not 100% thrilled with Bodine, but maybe feel the options were not available.

If I were king for a day I would have thrown the kitchen sink at Mack in FA a year ago. But they did not and as others have stated, it is a shame we did not go after the 1 or 2 guys in FA that could have helped be a better team and Super Bowl contender.

(08-22-2017, 01:15 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is a great post. 

Bengals DE's drafted 2009 to 2016: 

Michael Jonson - 6'7" 260+
Carlos Dunlap - 6'6" 290
Margus Hunt - 6'8" 277
Will Clarke - 6'6" 271


If you look at the top sack leaders from 2016, you have to get to the 13th rank to find a guy over 265 lbs. 
Most are in that 6'5 and under and 250-260 range in weight. 

And when you keep going back, outside of GREAT players like Watt, you notice that you will only see statistical outlying seasons from guys over those benchmarks. And even Watt doesn't rush from the edge. 

*I am really only looking at Edge rushers.*

They just haven't been drafting proficient pass rusher types before Lawson and Willis.

I agree, it appears the coaches want our DE's to be stout against the run first which I have no issue. My issue is they never until now drafted guys or traded for guys like Smith, Willis and Lawson who may never be 3 down DE's or players, but they sure can get after the QB in passing situations and can play against the run, just can't do it for 60+ plays a game physically.

(08-22-2017, 01:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree, it appears the coaches want our DE's to be stout against the run first which I have no issue. My issue is they never until now drafted guys or traded for guys like Smith, Willis and Lawson who may never be 3 down DE's or players, but they sure can get after the QB in passing situations and can play against the run, juts can't do it for 60+ plays a game physically.

Most of those sack leaders can play 3 downs. 
It's an old school mentality that most of the league has avoided the last few years. Teams have been trending towards smaller better bending edge rushers, we haven't. 

It's not about size, it's about skills. 
Neither Clarke nor Hunt were ever good vs the run. 
It's just a weird thing they have for size at that spot because it worked with Johnson and Dunlap and then with Fanene and Rucker. 
That was lightning in a bottle but they treated it like a golden rule. 

Im just glad they have finally made the call and added guys like Lawson and Willis. It's about time. There was the Moch experiment but they gave up on that quicker than anything. 

(08-22-2017, 01:06 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Fixed that last line for you

Ha!  Duly noted.....

(08-22-2017, 01:17 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The thought of drafting Thompson and Still to possibly replace Peko (Thompson) had to be a possible plan of the FO. I know everyone says draft a center to replace Bodine, but in 2017 there was not close to a can't miss center in the draft like Pouncey. So, we draft a possibly Thompson/Still type center in round 2 (no Mixon) or round 3 (No Willis) with the hope the rookie beats out Bodine. My point is the draft was not the place the past 2 years to find a sure fire can't miss center prospect. So maybe they are not 100% thrilled with Bodine, but maybe feel the options were not available.

If I were king for a day I would have thrown the kitchen sink at Mack in FA a year ago. But they did not and as others have stated, it is a shame we did not go after the 1 or 2 guys in FA that could have helped be a better team and Super Bowl contender.

Mack would be sweet here. Mangold would be good for a year or 2 just to mentor Bodine if nothing else.

(08-22-2017, 01:25 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Most of those sack leaders can play 3 downs. 
It's an old school mentality that most of the league has avoided the last few years. Teams have been trending towards smaller better bending edge rushers, we haven't. 

It's not about size, it's about skills. 
Neither Clarke nor Hunt were ever good vs the run. 
It's just a weird thing they have for size at that spot because it worked with Johnson and Dunlap and then with Fanene and Rucker. 
That was lightning in a bottle but they treated it like a golden rule. 

Im just glad they have finally made the call and added guys like Lawson and Willis. It's about time. There was the Moch experiment but they gave up on that quicker than anything. 

Exactly. That's why I've been so critical of the team in recent past. They seem to cling to an outdated philosophy that simply is not good enough in today's NFL.
It seems Marvin Lewis especially clings to the team he coached back when he won a Super Bowl with the Ravens....which was 16 years ago!
The NFL has evolved a lot since then. It's time the Bengals catch up.

(08-22-2017, 01:25 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Most of those sack leaders can play 3 downs. 
It's an old school mentality that most of the league has avoided the last few years. Teams have been trending towards smaller better bending edge rushers, we haven't. 

It's not about size, it's about skills. 
Neither Clarke nor Hunt were ever good vs the run. 
It's just a weird thing they have for size at that spot because it worked with Johnson and Dunlap and then with Fanene and Rucker. 
That was lightning in a bottle but they treated it like a golden rule. 

Im just glad they have finally made the call and added guys like Lawson and Willis. It's about time. There was the Moch experiment but they gave up on that quicker than anything. 

6 of the 10 2016 sack leaders were LB's in a 3-4 defense.

Sacks Leaders

 
Vic Beasley Jr., LB
ATL

Von Miller, LB

Lorenzo Alexander, LB
BUF

 
Danielle Hunter, DE
MIN

 
Markus Golden, LB
ARI

Cameron Wake, DE
MIA

 
Cliff Avril, DE
SEA

Nick Perry, LB

 
Erik Walden, LB

 
Khalil Mack, DE

They have Mack listed as a DE, but I am pretty sure he plays like a LB also

(08-22-2017, 01:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 6 of the 10 2016 sack leaders were LB's in a 3-4 defense.

Sacks Leaders

 
Vic Beasley Jr., LB
ATL

Von Miller, LB

Lorenzo Alexander, LB
BUF

 
Danielle Hunter, DE
MIN

 
Markus Golden, LB
ARI

Cameron Wake, DE
MIA

 
Cliff Avril, DE
SEA

Nick Perry, LB

 
Erik Walden, LB

 
Khalil Mack, DE

They have Mack listed as a DE, but I am pretty sure he plays like a LB also

Mack plays with his hand down at times. So does Miller. It's almost irrelevant what their listed spot is. That's why I said edge rushers. 
Do they rush the edge, that's the question. 

(08-22-2017, 01:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 6 of the 10 2016 sack leaders were LB's in a 3-4 defense.

Sacks Leaders

 
Vic Beasley Jr., LB
ATL

Von Miller, LB

Lorenzo Alexander, LB
BUF

 
Danielle Hunter, DE
MIN

 
Markus Golden, LB
ARI

Cameron Wake, DE
MIA

 
Cliff Avril, DE
SEA

Nick Perry, LB

 
Erik Walden, LB

 
Khalil Mack, DE

They have Mack listed as a DE, but I am pretty sure he plays like a LB also

I guess I 'll be the first to say it...perhaps we should stop playing a 4-3 and be a 3-4 with LBs as edge rushers than big trees?

(08-22-2017, 01:17 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The thought of drafting Thompson and Still to possibly replace Peko (Thompson) had to be a possible plan of the FO. I know everyone says draft a center to replace Bodine, but in 2017 there was not close to a can't miss center in the draft like Pouncey. So, we draft a possibly Thompson/Still type center in round 2 (no Mixon) or round 3 (No Willis) with the hope the rookie beats out Bodine. My point is the draft was not the place the past 2 years to find a sure fire can't miss center prospect. So maybe they are not 100% thrilled with Bodine, but maybe feel the options were not available.

If I were king for a day I would have thrown the kitchen sink at Mack in FA a year ago. But they did not and as others have stated, it is a shame we did not go after the 1 or 2 guys in FA that could have helped be a better team and Super Bowl contender.

Here! Here!  Absolutely spot on.  There were A LOT of us here that wanted Mack.  Oh well.....

(08-22-2017, 01:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I guess I 'll be the first to say it...perhaps we should stop playing a 4-3 and be a 3-4 with LBs as edge rushers than big trees?

The problem with doing that now is that it leaves Geno without a position.

(08-22-2017, 10:07 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: The good news (or bad depending how you look at it) is just about anybody would be an upgrade to what we have now!  We just need to scour the wire of teams that have great o-lines, like Dallas and Oakland.

Still, even if we pick and a good player it will be weeks/months before they can get comfortable in our system.

Someone's been fooled by PFF...

(08-22-2017, 01:17 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The thought of drafting Thompson and Still to possibly replace Peko (Thompson) had to be a possible plan of the FO. I know everyone says draft a center to replace Bodine, but in 2017 there was not close to a can't miss center in the draft like Pouncey. So, we draft a possibly Thompson/Still type center in round 2 (no Mixon) or round 3 (No Willis) with the hope the rookie beats out Bodine. My point is the draft was not the place the past 2 years to find a sure fire can't miss center prospect. So maybe they are not 100% thrilled with Bodine, but maybe feel the options were not available.

If I were king for a day I would have thrown the kitchen sink at Mack in FA a year ago. But they did not and as others have stated, it is a shame we did not go after the 1 or 2 guys in FA that could have helped be a better team and Super Bowl contender.

I would have taken Elflein or Pocic in Round 2, Jeremy McNichols with the first 5th rounder, and taken Elliott or Gonzalez with the 5th round comp.
But next year looks to have some solid C prospects too, so if the OL doesn't pan out this year, I expect/hope to see (multiple) OL selected within the first few rounds.