(09-02-2017, 03:38 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Pitiful.

Why do our drafts get so much praise again?

No doubt the successful teams either do not participate in this practice or have amazing picks. Just look at this list of All-Pros from the New England Patriots during the same period:

Nick Kaczar (G)

Ryan Clayridge (LB)
Andy Stokes (TE)
Dan Stevenson (G)
Le Kevin Smith (DT)
Clint Oldenburg (OT)
Justise Harrison (RB)
Corey Hillard (OT)
Mike Elgin ©
Tyron McKenzie (LB)
George Bussey (G)
Myron Pryor (DT)
Ted Larson ©  
Brandon Deadrick (DT)
Kade Weston (DT)
Cameron Fleming (OT)
Geneo Grissom (DT)
Vincent Valentine (DT)
Kamu Grugier-Hill (LB)
Elandon Roberts (LB)
Ted Karrus III (OG)
 
They've actually had 1 more comp pick than us during the same timeframe with much worse results.

(09-03-2017, 09:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Despite the pure awesomeness of this response, I have to disagree on this premise:  Who would you have kept, for what money, and what future FA we would not be able to sign because we kept an aging Whitworth and a WAY overvalued Zeitler.  

I would much rather go with who we have and be able to sign Burfict and Eifert.  They are more important to the team at this stage.  

Huge Rep on the post, though, for creativity. 

I hear ya, but it's not about naming specific players we should target/get/keep so much as realizing there is a certain "That'll do" mindset that pervades this entire organization's business plan.  We've been hearing that retaining Burfict and Eifert is the reason we can't keep/sign player X for years.  I don't claim to know the entire ins and outs of the NFL cap, but I see the Steelers and Patriots signing guys despite having more high profile players than we do.

Hell, the Patriots immediately traded their 3rd string QB for a WR after the Edelman injury while we lose our #1 WR and start talking about how awesome it's going to be to see how good Dalton can be when he spreads the ball around to lesser talent.  That's my rub on the fact that we let Zeitler and Whitworth walk.  We spent the entire off-season going into 2016 talking about how losing Hue/Eifert/Jones/Sanu was going to open the door for Zampese/Kroft/Core/multiple WRs who didn't make the team to shine and blah blah blah.

As I said before, I hope everything is fine but I doubt we'll all be thinking about how much money we saved on the o-line if Dalton is on his back seeing stars all year.  Wow, Dalton got destroyed on that play but hey, you can't overpay old probowl o-linemen.

Like I said, I get the optimism but it's clear that we've been condition to make the most of a franchise that won't/can't operate like the others. I liken it to my pals who are Pirates fans when they say stuff like "Well, I wish we could keep (starting pitcher) because he's great, but the Pirates can't pay (normal rate for a starting pitcher) like other teams."  They get it.  They realize their team just operates in a manner that isn't up to league standards so they are chuffed when they make the playoffs and lose a team that does.

(09-03-2017, 09:27 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I think the issue is more about us winning 6 games and letting players walk and doing little/nothing in free agency while the two teams that played in the AFC Championship game spent the off-season making some pretty big moves to improve their team.  It's like the Bengals, Steelers, and Patriots are all vying for the same hot girl and they are working out and learning to play sweet electric guitar to impress her and we are sitting in our mom's basement watching Battlestar Galactica reruns and eating hot pockets and waiting for her to come to her senses and pick us because we are a nice guy.

Lol. This is pretty funny though.

(09-03-2017, 10:32 AM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt the successful teams either do not participate in this practice or have amazing picks. Just look at this list of All-Pros from the New England Patriots during the same period:

Nick Kaczar (G)

Ryan Clayridge (LB)
Andy Stokes (TE)
Dan Stevenson (G)
Le Kevin Smith (DT)
Clint Oldenburg (OT)
Justise Harrison (RB)
Corey Hillard (OT)
Mike Elgin ©
Tyron McKenzie (LB)
George Bussey (G)
Myron Pryor (DT)
Ted Larson ©  
Brandon Deadrick (DT)
Kade Weston (DT)
Cameron Fleming (OT)
Geneo Grissom (DT)
Vincent Valentine (DT)
Kamu Grugier-Hill (LB)
Elandon Roberts (LB)
Ted Karrus III (OG)
 
They've actually had 1 more comp pick than us during the same timeframe with much worse results.

They're smart enough to sign free agents though. Gilmore this year. Trading for Cooks. They don't try to sell their fan base on losing a starter and not replacing them in free agency so they can get a draft pick.

You do realize that based on the recent track record what we'll see is the money supposedly rolled over for Eifert and Tez will be unspent and both will be allowed to walk. Lest we forget the also claimed they were rolling over money for Zeitler and before that for Marvin Jones and/or Sanu. AJ Green was the last player who they claimed to be rolling money over for and then actually signed.

(09-03-2017, 04:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They're smart enough to sign free agents though. Gilmore this year. Trading for Cooks. They don't try to sell their fan base on losing a starter and not replacing them in free agency so they can get a draft pick.

Then how do they get so many compensatory picks if they continue to replace those they lose instead of relying on draft picks? 

(09-02-2017, 02:40 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Great point!

Someone else posted a complete list of our Comp picks under Lewis. It's a pretty pathetic list.

Lose a Pro Bowl caliber player...replace him with a backup.

That's a decision only a cheapskate would support.

(09-03-2017, 05:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Then how do they get so many compensatory picks if they continue to replace those they lose instead of relying on draft picks? 

Trades and signing guys that were released. Neither affects compensatory picks. The Pats have made a lot of trades for quality proven players through the years. 

Beginning to look like Marvin's roster building is receding to mirror his on-field accomplishments.

Way past time to move on with or without Marvin sitting in a front office position.

No excuse to have had this amount of talent without a single solitary playoff win notched.

(09-03-2017, 06:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Trades and signing guys that were released. Neither affects compensatory picks. The Pats have made a lot of trades for quality proven players through the years. 

Because they have an owner who wants to win and puts his $ where his mouth is and we have a lawyer who wants to make $
where winning is nice too if it doesn't cost too much of that $.

(09-03-2017, 04:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They're smart enough to sign free agents though. Gilmore this year. Trading for Cooks. They don't try to sell their fan base on losing a starter and not replacing them in free agency so they can get a draft pick.

This IS the Bengals way: Refer to Page 37 in Owner's Manual.

Agree comp picks are no excuse not to bring FA's.

Would not want to live on FA but a hole could be plugged easier with an experienced player.

To be fair yet probably wrong because just going off memory.

But was not Marvin Jones selected with the one we received from Ocho Cinco ?

Certain am wrong or it would have been mentioned.

(09-04-2017, 11:47 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree comp picks are no excuse not to bring FA's.

Would not want to live on FA but a hole could be plugged easier with an experienced player.

To be fair yet probably wrong because just going off memory.

But was not Marvin Jones selected with the one we received from Ocho Cinco ?

Certain am wrong or it would have been mentioned.

Chad Johnson was traded. Marvin Jones was picked with one of the selections we received in trade.

The ownership over values comp picks. Lose a key player to free agency, ah no worries im sure the 5th rounder we get for him will be ok.

(09-04-2017, 11:57 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: The ownership over values comp picks, and its depressing.

Cheap labor. Plus they've been selling the fan base on the draft for years. Hyping draft picks. Hyping Tobin. Suggesting that free agency is the devil.

If they worked as hard towards winning as they do at duping the fans, PBS would running out of space for banners.

(09-04-2017, 12:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Cheap labor. Plus they've been selling the fan base on the draft for years. Hyping draft picks. Hyping Tobin. Suggesting that free agency is the devil.

If they worked as hard towards winning as they do at duping the fans, PBS would running out of space for banners.

Then why are many other teams now beginning to follow the Bengals model to be better positioned against the salary cap? The losses in the playoffs are an indicator of coaching flaws, not the talent level of the team (which FA and the draft address). The rosters have been talented enough to make the playoffs as many times as most of the top teams in the NFL. Where the fans are duped is by thinking FA is the answer when it has been repeatedly proven that although it occasionally works out, it more often does not, and is a much more expensive mistake than a draft pick that doesn't pan out.

(09-03-2017, 11:44 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, but it's not about naming specific players we should target/get/keep so much as realizing there is a certain "That'll do" mindset that pervades this entire organization's business plan.  We've been hearing that retaining Burfict and Eifert is the reason we can't keep/sign player X for years.  I don't claim to know the entire ins and outs of the NFL cap, but I see the Steelers and Patriots signing guys despite having more high profile players than we do.

Hell, the Patriots immediately traded their 3rd string QB for a WR after the Edelman injury while we lose our #1 WR and start talking about how awesome it's going to be to see how good Dalton can be when he spreads the ball around to lesser talent.  That's my rub on the fact that we let Zeitler and Whitworth walk.  We spent the entire off-season going into 2016 talking about how losing Hue/Eifert/Jones/Sanu was going to open the door for Zampese/Kroft/Core/multiple WRs who didn't make the team to shine and blah blah blah.

As I said before, I hope everything is fine but I doubt we'll all be thinking about how much money we saved on the o-line if Dalton is on his back seeing stars all year.  Wow, Dalton got destroyed on that play but hey, you can't overpay old probowl o-linemen.

Like I said, I get the optimism but it's clear that we've been condition to make the most of a franchise that won't/can't operate like the others. I liken it to my pals who are Pirates fans when they say stuff like "Well, I wish we could keep (starting pitcher) because he's great, but the Pirates can't pay (normal rate for a starting pitcher) like other teams."  They get it.  They realize their team just operates in a manner that isn't up to league standards so they are chuffed when they make the playoffs and lose a team that does.

Baseball is a very different situation, with no cap and guaranteed salaries.  

I understand the perception about "not doing anything" but your example about AJ happened in an already pretty bleak season and they had already signed a FA to replace Marvin Jones and Mo Sanu, both (again) players that I feel got way more money than they deserved.  The one thing you can't blame the Bengals for is being reactionary.  They planned for the departure of Zeitler and Whit by drafting and developing players.  Sure, Ced has struggled, but I feel this year he will prove them right and will be at the very least a solid LT.  Whit was one of my all-time favorite players, but you simply can't offer a guy his age that long a contract.  You can, and the Bengals tried for a reported two-year deal, but the Rams had a bigger need and paid him more.

I'm not trying to change your perception, but just to defense the Bengals a bit because I think they have done everything they can to put a winning team on the field.  My biggest complaint with them is/was letting Hue go instead of replacing Marvin with him.  Even if there was a succession plan, it should have been on paper and locked up.  From a player standpoint, I think the team is ready to roll and will surprise a lot of people this year, and is well-designed for success for the long term. 

(09-04-2017, 12:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Cheap labor. Plus they've been selling the fan base on the draft for years. Hyping draft picks. Hyping Tobin. Suggesting that free agency is the devil.

If they worked as hard towards winning as they do at duping the fans, PBS would running out of space for banners.

Its sad that its so obvious they are more concerned with trying to convince us that this offensive line is a capable one, rather then being proactive trying to get help.

(09-03-2017, 10:32 AM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt the successful teams either do not participate in this practice or have amazing picks. Just look at this list of All-Pros from the New England Patriots during the same period:

Nick Kaczar (G)

Ryan Clayridge (LB)
Andy Stokes (TE)
Dan Stevenson (G)
Le Kevin Smith (DT)
Clint Oldenburg (OT)
Justise Harrison (RB)
Corey Hillard (OT)
Mike Elgin ©
Tyron McKenzie (LB)
George Bussey (G)
Myron Pryor (DT)
Ted Larson ©  
Brandon Deadrick (DT)
Kade Weston (DT)
Cameron Fleming (OT)
Geneo Grissom (DT)
Vincent Valentine (DT)
Kamu Grugier-Hill (LB)
Elandon Roberts (LB)
Ted Karrus III (OG)
 
They've actually had 1 more comp pick than us during the same timeframe with much worse results.

Tried to rep you (again) so quickly, I hit the "find" button...do you get anything for that?  

(09-03-2017, 07:14 PM)Rattler Wrote: Beginning to look like Marvin's roster building is receding to mirror his on-field accomplishments.

Way past time to move on with or without Marvin sitting in a front office position.

No excuse to have had this amount of talent without a single solitary playoff win notched.

We've been living off of the Dalton, Green, Boling and Atkins, Dunlap drafts for a while now. Those were our last truly great drafts.

Our drafting the past 5-6 years or so has been average to below average.