Posts: 15,116
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147378
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 11:46 AM)McC Wrote: I wouldn't hate him either. It ain't personal. I'm just commenting on what has happened and that is really bad QB play independent of the bad stuff around him.
Well like I said, his mechanics have gotten worse and that's on him. Could be frustration on his part, but that'd be on him as well. He has to stay composed.
Look, you can boil down my opinion to this: I'm not happy with Dalton's play in 2017, but I'm even more unhappy with the offense as a whole, the FO for assembling this joke of an o-line, making a lazy hire with Ken Zampese, and I'm willing to give Dalton some benefit of the doubt based on 6 years of him doing good things...sometimes despite what's going on around him.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 232
Threads: 1
Reputation:
384
Joined: Jul 2015
(09-16-2017, 11:59 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well like I said, his mechanics have gotten worse and that's on him. Could be frustration on his part, but that'd be on him as well. He has to stay composed.
Look, you can boil down my opinion to this: I'm not happy with Dalton's play in 2017, but I'm even more unhappy with the offense as a whole, the FO for assembling this joke of an o-line, making a lazy hire with Ken Zampese, and I'm willing to give Dalton some benefit of the doubt based on 6 years of him doing good things...sometimes despite what's going on around him.
When was the last time you updated your sig?
The problem is that a lot of people give Andy the "benefit of the doubt" every day, every game, every year, and their criticism of him ("Oh he is just hurried and needs to stay composed") is never really a criticism of him, it's a criticism of something else (the O-line).
There's no doubt that when surrounded by good coaching, 3 above average WRs, a decent O-line, a strong run game, Andy Dalton is a good NFL QB.
We've all seen it.
The question is, what happens when parts of that are stripped away? What happens when it's not Hue calling plays, but Zampese? What happens when the front office lets a decent O-line walk and provides Andy with a bad O-line? When you take away even one of those components, Andy's play reflects it. Take away all of them, Andy's play reflects it.
That's not exactly a leader and that's not a QB who raises or elevates the play of his teammates.
So I think criticism of Andy is warranted - and I mean criticism of Andy, not criticism of other parts of the team disguised as criticism of Andy.
Posts: 232
Threads: 1
Reputation:
384
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,355
Threads: 3
Reputation:
6026
Joined: May 2015
I say give Dalton 2 quarters max in green bay. If there isn't major improvement, put in AJM. What do we really have to lose at this point? One more loss and this season is pretty much over. Marvin has to try something to spark the offense.
I think it's unfair to the fans to burn one more game because you're afraid to take a chance. Marvin would look like a genius if it worked and if not, we could just ride out the season the way we are right now.
"Our offensive line is going to surprise a lot of people" - Mike Brown (7-26-21)
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147378
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 12:21 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1. When was the last time you updated your sig?
2. The problem is that a lot of people give Andy the "benefit of the doubt" every day, every game, every year, and their criticism of him ("Oh he is just hurried and needs to stay composed") is never really a criticism of him, it's a criticism of something else (the O-line).
3. There's no doubt that when surrounded by good coaching, 3 above average WRs, a decent O-line, a strong run game, Andy Dalton is a good NFL QB.
We've all seen it.
4. The question is, what happens when parts of that are stripped away? What happens when it's not Hue calling plays, but Zampese? What happens when the front office lets a decent O-line walk and provides Andy with a bad O-line? When you take away even one of those components, Andy's play reflects it. Take away all of them, Andy's play reflects it.
That's not exactly a leader and that's not a QB who raises or elevates the play of his teammates.
So I think criticism of Andy is warranted - and I mean criticism of Andy, not criticism of other parts of the team disguised as criticism of Andy.
1. Haven't been much in the mood to update the sig. Been kinda bummed about the 0-2 start, seeing as how I'm a Bengals fan, not just a fan of 1 player. I'm sure not much has changed though, considering it's only 2 games in a career that spans 95 games. I'll update it soon, just for you, although it seems like you guys never ask for updates after a good stretch (and yes I've lagged on it then, too)
2. Which other years (we're at 2 games, but whatever...) did Andy need us to give him benefit of the doubt? 2014? Any other years you can point to? So no...it's not "every day, every year". And are you really going to argue that the o-line isn't a legitimate excuse? Is that what you're rolling with? The o-line deserves criticism dude.
3. When has Andy been "surrounded" by good coaching? How many times has he had 3 above average WR's? When has he had a strong run game? Stop the nonsense. He's succeeded without many of these things.
4. What QB is unaffected by the situation around him?
- Russell Wilson's stats are nearly identical to Dalton's since the beginning of last year, and all he's dealt with is a bad o-line. His coordinator wasn't fired, he has a better run game, and less injuries at receiver. The o-line falling apart is all it took for his play to decline.
- Tom Brady had several injuries at receiver in 2013. The result? He fell to 17th in the league in passer rating. Same thing with Edelman this year and he looked awful in week 1.
- Brees lost Sean Payton in 2012. The result? His passer rating dropped 14.3 points and his completion % was (still is) his lowest in any year since 2003. Led the league in INT's. His line wasn't bad (26 sacks). His receivers were healthy. He just lost his favorite coach.
- Rodgers had some injuries at WR in 2015. The result? Career low's in passer rating (ranked 15th), completion % (ranked 26th) and YPA (ranked 30th).
*this shouldn't have to be said, but on here it does: This was not me saying Dalton = Brady, Rodgers or Brees. This was me showing that ALL QB's are affected by their surroundings. Even the best. Now an "above-average" guy like Dalton or Stafford? Pfff...
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 12,194
Threads: 214
Reputation:
56574
Joined: May 2015
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147378
Joined: May 2015
Now for the best comparison. Matt Stafford in 2015.
- Above average QB (like Dalton)
- Getting beat up behind a bad o-line (like Dalton)
- Fans calling for his head (like Dalton)
- O-Coordinator fired (like Dalton)
Stafford had an abysmal 74.8 rating and 8 INT's in his first 5 games that year.
His rating after Jim Bob Cooter was promoted was 105.1.
Now why didn't Stafford just "elevate his teammates"? Why didn't he overcome his awful coordinator? The truth is that sometimes when a good QB is playing awful, something else is at least part of the problem.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 38,553
Threads: 911
Reputation:
130171
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 11:00 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Because as anyone who knows anything about football knows, TD passes rely only on the QB throwing them. It's the QB's responsibility to call a pass play in the red zone; it's the QB's responsibility to call the right pass play; it's the QB's responsibility to have the right personnel for said play; it's the QB's responsibility to block the defenders on said play; it's the QB's responsibility to get open on said play; it's the QB's responsibilty to catch the pass on said play; and it's the QB's responsibility to stay inbounds before catching said pass on said play.
So, yeah, I can see how it's only Dalton's fault for the lack of TD production in the last 5 games. 
BTW, Dalton has 4 TDs in the last 6 games. 6 TDs in the last 7. Mind comparing those to those other guys for me? See if that still reinforces your meaningless point? Appreciate it. 
Is this one of those not defending Dalton's play posts?
Posts: 13,442
Threads: 132
Reputation:
89225
Joined: May 2015
Ok let me ask the people giving Dalton the blame. Outside of one superbowl run how great has Aaron Rodgers been in a hell of alot weaker divison?
Posts: 38,553
Threads: 911
Reputation:
130171
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 09:02 PM)Synric Wrote: Ok let me ask the people giving Dalton the blame. Outside of one superbowl run how great has Aaron Rodgers been in a hell of alot weaker divison?
You mean besides holding the NFL record for career passer rating?
Posts: 27,876
Threads: 349
Reputation:
238469
Joined: Aug 2016
(09-16-2017, 09:02 PM)Synric Wrote: Ok let me ask the people giving Dalton the blame. Outside of one superbowl run how great has Aaron Rodgers been in a hell of alot weaker divison?
Are you really going there? 
Posts: 13,442
Threads: 132
Reputation:
89225
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 09:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You mean besides holding the NFL record for career passer rating?
Numbers only tell part of the story. This isn't baseball.
Are the Lions Bears and Vikings defenses they play 6 games against better than the Steelers Ravens and Bears? What is the Pass/Run ratio? Especially in the redzone?
Edit: Eli Manning has 2 superbowl wins. Is his career passer rating near Aaron Rodgers or Dalton? If numbers meant a damn thing Ken Anderson and Ken Riley would be in the HoF.
Posts: 345
Threads: 36
Reputation:
614
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 19,086
Threads: 235
Reputation:
177416
Joined: May 2015
Beer sales will triple during the next game.
Posts: 38,553
Threads: 911
Reputation:
130171
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 10:00 PM)Synric Wrote: Numbers only tell part of the story. This isn't baseball.
Are the Lions Bears and Vikings defenses they play 6 games against better than the Steelers Ravens and Bears? What is the Pass/Run ratio? Especially in the redzone?
Edit: Eli Manning has 2 superbowl wins. Is his career passer rating near Aaron Rodgers or Dalton?
You ask do number tell the tale then introduce numbers.
As to the defenses I only went back 3 years, but CHI, DET, MIN have finished higher as a group than PIT, BAL, CLV.
As to which career passer rating is near one another: Which one of these 3 numbers would you say is not like the other two:
104.0
88.2
83.7
Posts: 13,442
Threads: 132
Reputation:
89225
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 10:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You ask do number tell the tale then introduce numbers.
As to the defenses I only went back 3 years, but CHI, DET, MIN have finished higher as a group than PIT, BAL, CLV.
As to which career passer rating is near one another: Which one of these 3 numbers would you say is not like the other two:
104.0
88.2
83.7
Did you do total defense or points cuz let's face it points more more important than yards. Bend don't break ask Belicheat. And I'd like to see all of them points per game allowed since your doing research. Then tell me what was the run / pass ratio in the red zone cuz we know that TD passes up thr passer rating big time and we know Hill has been one of th3 best scoring redzone backs since he's been here and BJGE was mo slouch.
Posts: 38,553
Threads: 911
Reputation:
130171
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 10:19 PM)Synric Wrote: Did you do total defense or points cuz let's face it points more more important than yards. Bend don't break ask Belicheat. And I'd like to see all of them points per game allowed since your doing research. Then tell me what was the run / pass ratio in the red zone cuz we know that TD passes up thr passer rating big time and we know Hill has been one of th3 best scoring redzone backs since he's been here and BJGE was mo slouch.
Just stop. There is no comparison between Andy Dalton and Aaron Rodgers, except both their first names start with A.
Posts: 13,442
Threads: 132
Reputation:
89225
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 10:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just stop. There is no comparison between Andy Dalton and Aaron Rodgers, except both their first names start with A.
Rodgers is a better QB no doubt, but Andy Dalton isn't bad either.
You can throw up as many numbers as you want this isn't baseball it's about the tape.
My question is to people bashing Dalton is if Rodgers is the best QB in the league why does he only have one superbowl win?
Edit lol I can't keep playing even deeper. If Lamar Jackson won the Heisman why were Alabama and Clemson in the nation Championship?
Posts: 13,442
Threads: 132
Reputation:
89225
Joined: May 2015
(09-16-2017, 10:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just stop. There is no comparison between Andy Dalton and Aaron Rodgers, except both their first names start with A.
Oh oh. Big Ben has 2 superbowl wins and what 3 apperances? Is his career passer rating as high as Rodgers?
Posts: 27,876
Threads: 349
Reputation:
238469
Joined: Aug 2016
Any other Hall of Famers you want to mention while talking about Dalton? Brady? Brees?
|
![[Image: giphy.gif]](http://media1.giphy.com/media/9EmYYw6o9cmsM/giphy.gif)
![[Image: bfine-guns2.png]](https://i.ibb.co/YBkDQJV/bfine-guns2.png)
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
