Does it really feel any better that the players had to force Marvin's hand to make a change? I mean yeah he's gone but it didn't come across like it was a move he thought was necessary at the moment so if the near mutiny hadn't happened it would've been business as usual with Marv and the Bengals giving someone way too many chances past their expiration date.

Brad St Louis
Mike Nugent
John Thorton
Kyle Cook
Eric Ghiuchucka
Keiwan Ratliff


are some of the guys who come off of the top of my head who had way too many chances despite clearly sucking. I guess my point is it doesn't really matter to me what this team does at this point (unless something crazy like a playoff win.) Marvin still gives me no hope of winning a Superbowl. He fails to adapt to situations time and time again and when he does it's way too late and the team had to pay too big of a price.

I mean Brad St Louis the long snapper ruined how many games for us? The freakin long snapper can't even be replaced quickly.

(09-18-2017, 11:27 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Does it really feel any better that the players had to force Marvin's hand to make a change? I mean yeah he's gone but it didn't come across like it was a move he thought was necessary at the moment so if the near mutiny hadn't happened it would've been business as usual with Marv and the Bengals giving someone way too many chances past their expiration date.

Brad St Louis
Mike Nugent
John Thorton
Kyle Cook
Eric Ghiuchucka
Keiwan Ratliff


are some of the guys who come off of the top of my head who had way too many chances despite clearly sucking. I guess my point is it doesn't really matter to me what this team does at this point (unless something crazy like a playoff win.) Marvin still gives me no hope of winning a Superbowl. He fails to adapt to situations time and time again and when he does it's way too late and it the team had to pay too big of a price.

I mean Brad St Louis the long snapper ruined how many games for us? The freakin long snapper can't even be replaced quickly.

The very thing that kept the Bengals relevant (out of the 90's mantra) is going to be their ultimate undoing. What's extremely frustrating is that will not change no matter what. So even if when we fire Marv, the same organizational philosophy remains in tact. They just made it seem like they did something bold and innovative. But it's really just washing and repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Major problem other than what was stated is that MB does not give total control to his HC's it seems.

(09-18-2017, 11:49 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Major problem other than what was stated is that MB does not give total control to his HC's it seems.

Nope, he doesn't

Marvin said it during that awful presser after 2010 where ML was reupped. "Mike's got ultimate say" words to that effect. People keep this narrative going round here that Mike has let control go. And that Katie, Marvin and Duke are running most of the show. BS !!!!!

Mike is still calling the shots. He has to ok Zampese getting fired, he has to ok Dennis Roland being let go, Thorton, Nugent, Maualuga, and on and on. He even says who's playing - Ogbuehi and Fisher for example.

Make no mistake the real problem is above Marvin, and I'm not taking up for Marvin in any way ! He needed to be gone several years ago.

(09-18-2017, 12:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Nope, he doesn't

Marvin said it during that awful presser after 2010 where ML was reupped. "Mike's got ultimate say" words to that effect. People keep this narrative going round here that Mike has let control go. And that Katie, Marvin and Duke are running most of the show. BS !!!!!

Mike is still calling the shots. He has to ok Zampese getting fired, he has to ok Dennis Roland being let go, Thorton, Nugent, Maualuga, and on and on. He even says who's playing - Ogbuehi and Fisher for example.

Make no mistake the real problem is above Marvin, and I'm not taking up for Marvin in any way ! He needed to be gone several years ago.

Agree with everything said here. 

It feels a little better, but in the sense that making a change regardless of the reason is better than no change at all.

But overall I agree. As I said elsewhere, for the Bengals to win it all, they need a change at their 'model model' core that makes winning the top priority over all else. Maximize free agency, cut ties with shabby players before its too late, build an indoor facility, expand scouting department, bring in a new 'gm', etc.

It's more symbolic, but don't expect anything to change. You don't get better during the season. That's what the offseason is for.

(09-18-2017, 12:07 PM)Millhouse Wrote: It feels a little better, but in the sense that making a change regardless of the reason is better than no change at all.

But overall I agree. As I said elsewhere, for the Bengals to win it all, they need a change at their 'model model' core that makes winning the top priority over all else. Maximize free agency, cut ties with shabby players before its too late, build an indoor facility, expand scouting department, bring in a new 'gm', etc.

Yup !

Firing Zampese was just window dressing, just hoping it's the first of all the problems you listed. We need a total culture change or it's going to matter little. Lazor isn't going to be some magic fairy dust that cures all the problems.

(09-18-2017, 11:27 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Does it really feel any better that the players had to force Marvin's hand to make a change? I mean yeah he's gone but it didn't come across like it was a move he thought was necessary at the moment so if the near mutiny hadn't happened it would've been business as usual with Marv and the Bengals giving someone way too many chances past their expiration date.

That's the messed up - but not at all surprising - part of it. How in the hell could Marvin look at the 1st 2 weeks of offensive futility...and need the players to demand a change? 

Marvin should be gone by end of season. This offensive line needs work, even so can we see the old Andy Dalton if it's average+? AJ Green is getting tired of this franchise. I think when that 3 headed monster is not here we won't recognize this team.

My fear is that Marvin turns the season around just enough so that Zamp can be used as an excuse to give him another chance.

(09-18-2017, 12:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Nope, he doesn't

Marvin said it during that awful presser after 2010 where ML was reupped. "Mike's got ultimate say" words to that effect. People keep this narrative going round here that Mike has let control go. And that Katie, Marvin and Duke are running most of the show. BS !!!!!

Mike is still calling the shots. He has to ok Zampese getting fired, he has to ok Dennis Roland being let go, Thorton, Nugent, Maualuga, and on and on. He even says who's playing - Ogbuehi and Fisher for example.

Make no mistake the real problem is above Marvin, and I'm not taking up for Marvin in any way ! He needed to be gone several years ago.

I agree that Mike is, and has always been, the ultimate problem. But for the most part, Marvin basically has had control of the roster and coaching staff (expect for maybe Alexander, who seems to be a lifetime appointee by Mike). Marvin talked about that during an interview this offseason. He said that he was heavily involved in the day to day process, working closely with Katie, although Mike still has the final call on bigger issues, like whether the team should have suspended Pacman or not. Of course, I'm sure Mike still interjects himself and his opinions where NOT wanted, and probably does force Marvin's hand on some things.

The only reason I bring that up is because I think Mike, Katie and Marvin are basically a 3 headed monster at this point. I think they pretty much all operate under the same general philosophy, in terms of a very conservative approach. I think Marvin's decision making can be called question itself, which is why I don't know if I would trust him anymore than I do Mike or Katie...as far as having total control.

IDK, just my two cents. I'll stop rambling now.

(09-18-2017, 12:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I agree that Mike is, and has always been, the ultimate problem. But, Marvin basically has had control of the roster and coaching staff (expect for maybe Alexander, who seems to be a lifetime appointee by Mike). Marvin talked about that during and interview this offseason. He said that he was heavily involved in the day to day process, working closely with Katie, although Mike still has the final call on bigger issues, like whether the team should have suspended Pacman or not.

The only reason I bring that up is because I think Mike, Katie and Marvin are basically a 3 headed monster at this point. I think they pretty much all operate under the same general philosophy and all have a very conservative approach. I think Marvin's decision making can be called question itself, which is why I don't know if I would trust him anymore than I do Mike or Katie...as far as having total control.

IDK, just my two cents. I'll stop rambling now.

I'm with you. Group think happens a lot in family run businesses and businesses where the employees have been there forever.

I think they all probably would do things fairly similar.

(09-18-2017, 12:38 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm with you. Group think happens a lot in family run businesses and businesses where the employees have been there forever.

I think they all probably would do things fairly similar.

Somebody go find Tucker Carlson NOW!!  The sworn enemy of lying, pomposity smugness and group think!!   

(09-18-2017, 12:38 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm with you. Group think happens a lot in family run businesses and businesses where the employees have been there forever.

I think they all probably would do things fairly similar.

I still remember the quote from Katie a few years back when she said, "I think my Dad knows as much football as anyone out there.''


Of course, it's her dad and she's biased, but it still made me cringe.

(09-18-2017, 12:46 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I still remember the quote from Katie a few years back when she said, "I think my Dad knows as much football as anyone out there.''

Of course, it's her dad and she's biased, but it still made me cringe.

It's probably true. They run with a very small circle. A very small scouting department.

I think a fundamental problem the Bengals have is that the team is their sole source of income thus they run it like a business. Profit = revenue - expenses. In a small market the revenue is smaller than other cities so they keep the expenses low.

Contrast that to other cities where the owners made their money in other fields and view the team almost as a rich mans hobby that they compete in for prestige and status. You see these teams invest a lot of resources in winning.

The Steelers are an outlier as they are family-run and invest heavily in winning. I mean with less cap space than us they tagged Bell, extended Brown and Tuitt, and signed Haden to a large contract. Wow!

(09-18-2017, 11:49 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Major problem other than what was stated is that MB does not give total control to his HC's it seems.

Total control can be bad for a head coach if they aren't ready for GM duties.....but, letting someone like Katie make more calls with the roster can go a long way.  I think we've seen some of this lately....but, we need Mike to relinquish more!

(09-18-2017, 12:51 PM)Quantum Bengal Wrote: Total control can be bad for a head coach if they aren't ready for GM duties.....but, letting someone like Katie make more calls with the roster can go a long way.  I think we've seen some of this lately....but, we need Mike to relinquish more!

We really have no idea who is making the calls. From my perspective, we had 2 great drafts with Dalton/Green and Atkins/Dunlap then the past drafts have been mediocre at best.

Mediocre wouldn't be bad...but we've let some of our core players leave via free agency and we've not used free agency much to bring guys in to replace them.

Now we score touchdowns and the players have a chance, a CHANCE to overcome Marvin's incompetence and win football games.

The playbook will likely be the same. The line and line coaching will be the same.

All that really changes is what and when a certain play is called in a game. Maybe some of the run vs pass philosophy will change too.