(09-18-2017, 01:47 PM)grampahol Wrote: First off I joke about this quite often, but the more I see and think about it I've become convinced that since the league can legally script the outcomes of games and there are literally billions of dollars on the line the Cincinnati Bengals is a league loss leader by design and as such we'll never see a championship in Cincinnati because of it.
We can debate coaching smarts all day, but can anyone make a credible argument that Pittsburgh's head coach, Mike Tomlin is actually smarter than a broken pencil minus the eraser? I kind of doubt it. 
Andy has played pretty good up until just recently and out of the blue he suddenly can't toss the ball from the beach into the water from the shore line. Something isn't quite white in the rice here and we're to believe that two first round draft picks are somehow responsible for the whole mess? 
Unless the entire offensive coaching staff secretly had one big collective stroke in the off season and Mike Tomlin suddenly became smart overnight something just isn't adding up. 
Of course there's no proof other than what we see each and every game, year after year, but go to your local grocery store and try to figure out how suddenly milk can cost just a dollar one day and $3.50 a few days later..It's called a loss leader to get you into the door to buy more expensive items and it works. 
It works in football as well.
Aaron Rogers was seen as the best QB EVER by many and suddenly as if by magic he's an interception machine. Really? 
Two old guys who, if they had to actually compete with a bunch of 250 pound 24 year old men are able to go on to win championships at 40+? I don't know about the rest of you, but I've seen 40 come and go and can assure you that you just don't suddenly get to your prime physical shape at 40 without divine intervention and if there really is a god I kind of doubt he's rooting for Pittsburgh and New England and tossing Green Bay under the bus. 
Look, I want to think that the Bengals are just doing poorly because of the Oline, coaching and Andy suddenly without a reason in the world became horrible, but those issues existed before he became terrible. I want to believe that this team can win it all, but........
I believe that the Brown family is financially rewarded by having the loss leader of the league and I can't say that I can blame them. After all, if someone offered to make you a billionaire to suck would you take them up on the offer as opposed to barely scraping by and winning championships? How can any team never win a playoff game and still be able to pay out multiple million dollar salaries year after year after year?  You don't just become financially successful by being the worse team in the league and stupid to boot by accident. That would be like winning the big lotto drawing every year by digging in dumpsters for discarded tickets.. If they were anywhere even remotely as stupid as they appear to be there's no way in hell they wouldn't be all living in homeless shelters instead of mansions. It's quite literally impossible to be that stupid and still make billions of dollars without a little help from the league.. hint hint..nudge nudge wink wink.. 

I'm not following the loss leader part.  The cheap milk gets you in the door to buy the more expensive groceries.  How does the bad Bengals bring people into the NFL?

(09-18-2017, 09:20 PM)Fresno B Wrote: I dont understand the Mike Tomlin diss. He's a lot smarter than any coach the Bengals have had. He's the epitome of a top caliber NFL coach. 

Is this how the team and fans think? If so it's no wonder why we can't win sh**.

The Steelers offense really improved a couple years after the hiring of Todd Haley as OC in 2012.

2011 - 21st in pts, 12th in yards
2012 - 22nd in pts , 21st in yards
2013 - 16th in pts , 20th in yards
2014 - 7th in pts, 2nd in yards
2015 - 4th in pts , 3rd in yards
2016 - 10th in pts, 7th in yards

2017 (2 games) - 11th in pts, 16th in yards

2014 was really when it took off, which was Brown's 2nd year as WR1 there and also Bell's 2nd year.

It took Todd Haley a couple years to get the players that fit well into his scheme, but his hiring was what has made the Steelers into such a dynamo offense. Before Haley, the team was riding on LeBeau's renowned defense.

(09-19-2017, 06:25 AM)Wyche Wrote: Rodgers has the same problem we do....shitty line. Couple that with his main weapons out....and dare I say....the QB struggles. (It's really only making excuses in Cincinnati...it doesn't happen anywhere else ).

Brady....meet George Blanda. It happens every generation or so.

The Stoolers get a lot of favoritism....I'll give you that...but top to bottom, they're just better than us.

Revenue sharing cures even stupidity.

Revenue sharing = subsidized industry

In what industry does a government subsidy ever improve the quality of the product? If anything, it leads to complacency. It allows the bad teams to even turn a profit ignoring normal market pressures.

IF there was no revenue sharing and the Bengals were paid based on performance and if attendance to games was a big part of their revenue...they'd do things differently.

(09-19-2017, 12:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Revenue sharing = subsidized industry

In what industry does a government subsidy ever improve the quality of the product? If anything, it leads to complacency. It allows the bad teams to even turn a profit ignoring normal market pressures.

IF there was no revenue sharing and the Bengals were paid based on performance and if attendance to games was a big part of their revenue...they'd do things differently.

I dunno man, remember the 90s?

(09-19-2017, 01:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno man, remember the 90s?

Revenue sharing came in during the 1960's and then kept strengthening over the years:


http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2781759

I suppose I made my point about what I believe about the league and dirty dealing, but at heart I'm still a Bengals fan and not much will ever change that despite it all. 
For me it's tough to criticize coaches mainly because of how I perceive the way the league is run. If I'm right it wouldn't matter who our HC is, they're under constant pressure from the fans, players and above all the league to tow the company line because after all it is the league who has allowed them to become millionaires.
I still believe that coaches and players alike want to win. Nobody, not even the most cynical wakes up and says, 'Gee, I hope we get stomped badly today! , but if I'm correct and the league is deciding who wins and loses the company men, head coaches and owners pretty much have to swallow all pride and tow the line or be on the outside looking in. 

Now, moving on from this point?  I have no idea. It's tough to have it both ways, rooting for my team with the perceived knowledge that it's all just a rigged show. I still watch movies hoping it'll turn out the way I want. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.   I hate the idea of hoping against everything pointing towards a rigged game, but there it is. We go through this dance with many different aspects of our lives, football, politics, finances, relationships sometimes and so on. Hell, I've known people who go through lives in relationships with people who they know as fact are cheating on them and whine and cry when they find out their cheating significant other is sleeping with their best friend and still stay together.. Yeah boy! Life is fickled. 

(09-19-2017, 02:11 PM)grampahol Wrote: I suppose I made my point about what I believe about the league and dirty dealing, but at heart I'm still a Bengals fan and not much will ever change that despite it all. 
For me it's tough to criticize coaches mainly because of how I perceive the way the league is run. If I'm right it wouldn't matter who our HC is, they're under constant pressure from the fans, players and above all the league to tow the company line because after all it is the league who has allowed them to become millionaires.
I still believe that coaches and players alike want to win. Nobody, not even the most cynical wakes up and says, 'Gee, I hope we get stomped badly today! , but if I'm correct and the league is deciding who wins and loses the company men, head coaches and owners pretty much have to swallow all pride and tow the line or be on the outside looking in. 

Now, moving on from this point?  I have no idea. It's tough to have it both ways, rooting for my team with the perceived knowledge that it's all just a rigged show. I still watch movies hoping it'll turn out the way I want. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.   I hate the idea of hoping against everything pointing towards a rigged game, but there it is. We go through this dance with many different aspects of our lives, football, politics, finances, relationships sometimes and so on. Hell, I've known people who go through lives in relationships with people who they know as fact are cheating on them and whine and cry when they find out their cheating significant other is sleeping with their best friend and still stay together.. Yeah boy! Life is fickled. 

Drawing a parallel between following the Bengals and someone who is in a relationship with someone they know is cheating on them then complains when they find out they are sleeping with their best friend and staying in the relationship...

We know the Bengals haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years...yet every offseason there are people on these boards talking about a Super Bowl. Despite us knowing the line was going to be terrible and seeing key free agents leave. Knowing we don't spend in free agency. Knowing we let guys leave to be replaced with Comp picks.

Wow! That's a great parallel!

Sprinkle in a conspiracy plot where the NFL makes the Bengals lose on purpose...

You should write a novel!

(09-19-2017, 01:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Revenue sharing came in during the 1960's and then kept strengthening over the years:


http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2781759

Was not aware of that.....I assumed that was something that came about sometime in the late 90s or early 00s.....kinda like the salary floor.  That's the real reason the Bengals don't totally suck anymore.  Ebenezer HAS to spend so much.

Thanks for the info!

(09-19-2017, 02:25 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Drawing a parallel between following the Bengals and someone who is in a relationship with someone they know is cheating on them then complains when they find out they are sleeping with their best friend and staying in the relationship...

We know the Bengals haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years...yet every offseason there are people on these boards talking about a Super Bowl. Despite us knowing the line was going to be terrible and seeing key free agents leave. Knowing we don't spend in free agency. Knowing we let guys leave to be replaced with Comp picks.

Wow! That's a great parallel!

Sprinkle in a conspiracy plot where the NFL makes the Bengals lose on purpose...

You should write a novel!

Honestly, 2015 was our year....I felt anyway.   If it was ever going to happen, that was the year.  So much good.....that Seattle game was a thing of beauty.  Glad I was there.

(09-19-2017, 02:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: Honestly, 2015 was our year....I felt anyway.   If it was ever going to happen, that was the year.  So much good.....that Seattle game was a thing of beauty.  Glad I was there.

Yep and I think the team broke after not winning that Steelers Game.

How many times can you keep climbing the mountain only to fall back to the bottom and have to start again from scratch?

I see in MB a guy who grew up in or right after the Depression, where people found out it could all go away. The response to that was to become penny pinchers and always live(d) with that fear that anything could go away, no matter how good times are. It's not greed as much as fear.

I'm not saying his jillions could ever go away. Just that he has the fear mechanism.

So, when it comes to money spent in FA, he has a list of bad signings. So he mistrusts the process, even though it was bad decisions on who to sign and not a faulty system.

So, he listens to the coaches and gets bad advice in a pretty long list of instances. Maybe he doesn't know what the hell to do.

PA, do we need to do something about the line? No Boss, I got this.

Like Goering promising Hitler he'd take out Britain from the air.

So then you add the near manic insistence on loyalty. He never forgets his father being fired. All that stuff.

Add in a helluva large ego, you're smarter than everybody...and stubbornness like few other.

Do I think he's lying when he says he wants to win a title? No.

Do I think he's devoted every fiber of his being to it and been willing to do whatever it takes to do it? Hell no.

The bottom line is this way is not doing it. Way past time to try another way. It ain't 1958 any more.

(09-19-2017, 03:10 PM)McC Wrote: I see in MB a guy who grew up in or right after the Depression, where people found out it could all go away.  The response to that was to become penny pinchers and always live(d) with that fear that anything could go away, no matter how good times are.  It's not greed as much as fear.

I'm not saying his jillions could ever go away.  Just that he has the fear mechanism.

So, when it comes to money spent in FA, he has a list of bad signings.  So he mistrusts the process, even though it was bad decisions on who to sign and not a faulty system.  

So, he listens to the coaches and gets bad advice in a pretty long list of instances.  Maybe he doesn't know what the hell to do.

PA, do we need to do something about the line?  No Boss, I got this.

Like Goering promising Hitler he'd take out Britain from the air.

So then you add the near manic insistence on loyalty.  He never forgets his father being fired.  All that stuff.

Add in a helluva large ego, you're smarter than everybody...and stubbornness like few other.

Do I think he's lying when he says he wants to win a title?  No.

Do I think he's devoted every fiber of his being to it and been willing to do whatever it takes to do it?   Hell no.

The bottom line is this way is not doing it.  Way past time to try another way.  It ain't 1958 any more.

And quite frankly...when we do win a single playoff game...after 26+ years of trying is it a big achievement? Most teams int he league have won 4+ since we last won one. The Patriots have won something like 28 playoff games since then. The Steelers have won around 20.

We've won 5 in our entire franchise history. ENTIRE. FRANCHISE. 50 YEAR HISTORY. 5 playoff wins.

(09-19-2017, 03:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And quite frankly...when we do win a single playoff game...after 26+ years of trying is it a big achievement? Most teams int he league have won 4+ since we last won one. The Patriots have won something like 28 playoff games since then. The Steelers have won around 20.

We've won 5 in our entire franchise history. ENTIRE. FRANCHISE. 50 YEAR HISTORY. 5 playoff wins.

We just happened to catch fire a couple times with coaches whose teams didn't wilt in the spotlight.  And it didn't take either of them 15 years.

(09-19-2017, 03:25 PM)McC Wrote: We just happened to catch fire a couple times with coaches whose teams didn't wilt in the spotlight.  And it didn't take either of them 15 years.

Gregg was a straight up hard assed disciplinarian....and motivator through aggression.  Wyche was an innovator well ahead of his time, and good fundamentals and situational football coach (ask Joe Montana), also excellent x's and o's guy.  He wasn't afraid to experiment.

Marvin seems to be neither.....at least on the outside looking in.

(09-19-2017, 03:09 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep and I think the team broke after not winning that Steelers Game.

How many times can you keep climbing the mountain only to fall back to the bottom and have to start again from scratch?

That's a fair observation in my mind.

(09-19-2017, 03:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: Gregg was a straight up hard assed disciplinarian....and motivator through aggression.  Wyche was an innovator well ahead of his time, and good fundamentals and situational football coach (ask Joe Montana), also excellent x's and o's guy.  He wasn't afraid to experiment.

Marvin seems to be neither.....at least on the outside looking in.

I REALL WANTED us to hire Coughlin instead of Marvin. I don't think Marvin was a bad hire...but I was excited about Coughlin. He went in and built an expansion team and made them good.

That's EXACTLY what we needed with Mike Brown.

I remember hearing about the Coughlin interview. He basically presented a comprehensive plan of how he'd turn the franchise around.

I don't think Bengals Management wanted a strong willed coach.

(09-19-2017, 03:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I REALL WANTED us to hire Coughlin instead of Marvin. I don't think Marvin was a bad hire...but I was excited about Coughlin. He went in and built an expansion team and made them good.

That's EXACTLY what we needed with Mike Brown.

I remember hearing about the Coughlin interview. He basically presented a comprehensive plan of how he'd turn the franchise around.

I don't think Bengals Management wanted a strong willed coach.

I would have preferred Coughlin as well....also a no nonsense kinda guy, at least in those days.

(09-19-2017, 03:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And quite frankly...when we do win a single playoff game...after 26+ years of trying is it a big achievement? Most teams int he league have won 4+ since we last won one. The Patriots have won something like 28 playoff games since then. The Steelers have won around 20.

We've won 5 in our entire franchise history. ENTIRE. FRANCHISE. 50 YEAR HISTORY. 5 playoff wins.

Well, you could easily say we have been defying the Law of Averages and logic itself by not winning one, so it might be kinda big to us, at least.

(09-19-2017, 03:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: I would have preferred Coughlin as well....also a no nonsense kinda guy, at least in those days.

Didn't Mike want Coughlin but gave in to Katie on Marvin?

(09-19-2017, 03:40 PM)McC Wrote: Didn't Mike want Coughlin but gave in to Katie on Marvin?

I'm pretty sure I've heard that very thing on here at some point.  I have no idea as to the validity of it.