I keep hearing that Zeitler was overpaid with the Browns and not worth the money. While I agree that he was paid a lot, lets look at if the Bengals made a strong attempt at retaining him:

This was before Zeitler hit free agency:

“I don’t see it, I mean cause Kevin Zeitler turned down good money, turned down an offer that was something like $5.5 million per year average. But, you know, when you look at it, (Kelechi) Osemele got like $12 million bucks a year from the Oakland Raiders last year, as a guard. So Zeitler’s like, hmm. Osemele made the Pro Bowl team, Zeitler is second team. So Kevin Zeitler is thinking, I’ve gotta be eight, nine, 10, seven (million) worst case scenario. And not just Kevin, Kevin and his agents. But I don’t see the Bengals paying that kind of dollars to a guard when they have other guys they feel they can plug in and play,” Lapham said.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Then once he was a free agent:

And, they don't pay guards big money. Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

Then they went out and gave Andre Smith $3.25 million to stay.

(09-27-2017, 04:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I keep hearing that Zeitler was overpaid with the Browns and not worth the money. While I agree that he was paid a lot, lets look at if the Bengals made a strong attempt at retaining him:

This was before Zeitler hit free agency:

“I don’t see it, I mean cause Kevin Zeitler turned down good money, turned down an offer that was something like $5.5 million per year average. But, you know, when you look at it, (Kelechi) Osemele got like $12 million bucks a year from the Oakland Raiders last year, as a guard. So Zeitler’s like, hmm. Osemele made the Pro Bowl team, Zeitler is second team. So Kevin Zeitler is thinking, I’ve gotta be eight, nine, 10, seven (million) worst case scenario. And not just Kevin, Kevin and his agents. But I don’t see the Bengals paying that kind of dollars to a guard when they have other guys they feel they can plug in and play,” Lapham said.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Then once he was a free agent:

And, they don't pay guards big money. Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

Then they went out and gave Andre Smith $3.25 million to stay.

(09-28-2017, 08:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote:

Um, the term "water under the bridge" indicates that the subject in question is no longer of concern and/or has been circumnavigated by action (as in building a bridge over it).  In this case the water is our lousy o-line and the bridge is what, exactly?

Dalton is still getting ground into the turf on a weekly basis, so alas I see no bridge.

(09-28-2017, 08:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote:

This eased my mind

(09-28-2017, 08:29 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Um, the term "water under the bridge" indicates that the subject in question is no longer of concern and/or has been circumnavigated by action (as in building a bridge over it).  In this case the water is our lousy o-line and the bridge is what, exactly?

Dalton is still getting ground into the turf on a weekly basis, so alas I see no bridge.

Yes. DeCastro signed for $10 million a year. The Bengals seeing that offered their comparable player $5.5 million a year.

We now have a horrible offensive line. Thank goodness we signed Andre Smith for $3.25 million and Pacman for $6 million.

Does anyone think it's demotivating to the players seeing this? When Dalton gets sacked...atleast part of him has to think about how Zeitler was low-balled.

Zeitler was way overpaid by a team who traded like 17 million for a 2nd round pick.

We were not going to give the oldest tackle in the league a 3 yeqr deal either. Plus Whit wanted to take the opportunity for his family to experience the move out west.

I dont blame them for that. I do blame them for only drafting jj deilman and essentially cutting 4 draft picks. Everybody and their brother knew OL was our weakness and all we got was two guys coming off injury to replace the loss of our best two. Acted like hopkins would be a solution when dude has been more fragile than eifert and gave winston a full training camp and a bunch of preseason snaps...

(09-27-2017, 04:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I keep hearing that Zeitler was overpaid with the Browns and not worth the money. While I agree that he was paid a lot, lets look at if the Bengals made a strong attempt at retaining him:

This was before Zeitler hit free agency:

“I don’t see it, I mean cause Kevin Zeitler turned down good money, turned down an offer that was something like $5.5 million per year average. But, you know, when you look at it, (Kelechi) Osemele got like $12 million bucks a year from the Oakland Raiders last year, as a guard. So Zeitler’s like, hmm. Osemele made the Pro Bowl team, Zeitler is second team. So Kevin Zeitler is thinking, I’ve gotta be eight, nine, 10, seven (million) worst case scenario. And not just Kevin, Kevin and his agents. But I don’t see the Bengals paying that kind of dollars to a guard when they have other guys they feel they can plug in and play,” Lapham said.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Then once he was a free agent:

And, they don't pay guards big money. Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

Then they went out and gave Andre Smith $3.25 million to stay.

This doesn't surprise me. Boling makes an average of $5.2 million.
Clearly the Bengals have an approximate value they will spend on guards. The Bengals likely wouldn't have gone over $6 million.

Zeitler is making more per year average than the Steelers offered Bell...Does anyone really think signing him to a contract like that is good team management?

(09-28-2017, 11:13 AM)Synric Wrote: Zeitler is making more per year average than the Steelers offered Bell...Does anyone really think signing him to a contract like that is good team management?

Zeitler was not worth the contract he received from the Browns. However, if the $5.5 million offer from the Bengals is actually true, that was a lowball offer.
Ronald Leary signed with the Broncos for $9 mill a year.
$8-9 million for Zeitler would have been an appropriate, fair contract to offer Zeitler and he might not have bothered looking elsewhere if he had received such an offer before hitting FA.

(09-28-2017, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Zeitler was not worth the contract he received from the Browns. However, if the $5.5 million offer from the Bengals is actually true, that was a lowball offer.
Ronald Leary signed with the Broncos for $9 mill a year.
$8-9 million for Zeitler would have been an appropriate, fair contract to offer Zeitler and he might not have bothered looking elsewhere if he had received such an offer before hitting FA.

Point.

I bet they did Lowball him last year when offering him an extension. 

The biggest offseason disappointment to me was the depth of thr offensive line.

"Way overpaid"

He's a top guard in the NFL.
Top guards make 8-10 million.
He's at the higher end of that.

How is that way overpaid.

(09-28-2017, 10:53 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Zeitler was way overpaid by a team who traded like 17 million for a 2nd round pick.

We were not going to give the oldest tackle in the league a 3 yeqr deal either. Plus Whit wanted to take the opportunity for his family to experience the move out west.

I dont blame them for that. I do blame them for only drafting jj deilman and essentially cutting 4 draft picks. Everybody and their brother knew OL was our weakness and all we got was two guys coming off injury to replace the loss of our best two. Acted like hopkins would be a solution when dude has been more fragile than eifert and gave winston a full training camp and a bunch of preseason snaps...

They could have...oh...I don't know...SIGNED A FREE AGENT.

I saw commentary suggesting we sign TJ Lang who was a Pro Bowl player with the Packers. I think he got around $8 million a year from the Lions.

Instead we spend $3.25 million on Smith and $6 million on pass interference machine Adam Jones.

(09-28-2017, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Zeitler was not worth the contract he received from the Browns. However, if the $5.5 million offer from the Bengals is actually true, that was a lowball offer.
Ronald Leary signed with the Broncos for $9 mill a year.
$8-9 million for Zeitler would have been an appropriate, fair contract to offer Zeitler and he might not have bothered looking elsewhere if he had received such an offer before hitting FA.

Precisely! People say I wouldn't pay him what the Browns paid him...but DeCastro set the market at $10 million a year.

Had the Bengals offered Zeitler $8-9 million a year...maybe he takes it BEFORE he hits free agency.

We'll never know because the Bengals don't value Guards.

(09-28-2017, 12:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: "Way overpaid"

He's a top guard in the NFL.
Top guards make 8-10 million.
He's at the higher end of that.

How is that way overpaid.

$12 mil is 20% higher than the top mark you mentioned. 20% is a pretty high bump.

At the end of the day though, the Browns had the money to use and needed/wanted a top-end RG.

Was this before or after DeCastro?

The reason I ask is because if it was before, the Bengals were willing to negotiate and come to a decent deal setting the market value which is something the Bengals never ever do. If the offer was after, they were still willing to negotiate but were not going to pay what DeCastro received.

Zeitler's agent most likely told him to wait to see what DeCastro got and would want at least $250k more at least per year since Zeitler is the better guard.

The Bengals will never pay top $ for a guard and value tackles way more.

I just wish the Bengals were a little, just a little like the Cowboys when approaching the O Line.

(09-28-2017, 12:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: "Way overpaid"

He's a top guard in the NFL.
Top guards make 8-10 million.
He's at the higher end of that.

How is that way overpaid.

Because fans have no concept of NFL economics and think in terms of 2005 salaries. The salary cap rises by around $10 million a year. An $8 million contract in 2012 is equivalent to a $12 million contract now.

In 3 years, Zeitler's contract won't look so large...BUT MAYBE if we offered him $8-9 million a year he signs it. Instead we reportedly offered him $5.5 million according to Lapham.

The Steelers managed to:
-Sign DeCastro for $10 million a year
-Extend Villaneuva
-Extend Tuitt
-Extend Brown
-Franchise Bell
-Sign Haden to a nice contract.

We let Whitworth and Zeitler go citing having to extend Burfict and Eifert.

(09-28-2017, 12:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: $12 mil is 20% higher than the top mark you mentioned. 20% is a pretty high bump.

At the end of the day though, the Browns had the money to use and needed/wanted a top-end RG.

In the scheme of 8-10 MILLION, I don't think it's that big of a bump.

And when you actually look at his contract (Browns have an out after 3 years) he only makes 10 million per year, 2.4 mil of the "12 million a year" is signing bonus which doesn't have to be a yearly pay out but could have arranged differently. 

The chances of Zeitler seeing the last 2 years of his deal are slim because he goes up in price to the Browns. So they will likely* take the out. 

Kelechi Osemeli who is older and played fewer years in the league, got a higher GTD money on signing but took far less in overall guarantees. 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/kelechi-osemele-9870/

Compare his to Zeitler's
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/kevin-zeitler-9837/

Here are the other top guards:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/david-decastro-9834/

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/gabe-jackson-14491/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/joel-bitonio-14444/

The market reset in 2016. 
So Zeitler's 12 million a year (Osemele also signed a 5-year 60 million deal) is really just about how the Browns structured the deal. They could have shifted GTD money around instead of the 2.4 each year. 

But then again, great guards rarely get to hit free agency in their prime. Osemele is the only other one that did of that top bunch and he also got 5-years 60 million, just structured differently. 

(09-28-2017, 12:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Precisely! People say I wouldn't pay him what the Browns paid him...but DeCastro set the market at $10 million a year.

Had the Bengals offered Zeitler $8-9 million a year...maybe he takes it BEFORE he hits free agency.

We'll never know because the Bengals don't value Guards.

Hopefully after this shitshow of a year they get with the times and change their tune