(10-03-2017, 12:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree he should get more touches......but lost in all of this, what a remarkable comeback after an ACL tear last season.  He must have worked his tail off during rehab.

True, didn't expect Gio to look this good after an ACL tear, truly miraculous.

(10-03-2017, 04:46 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Currently Mixon is our best runner, Gio is our best running back. Unfortunately our blocking scheme is terrible so no RBs can get anything unless Mixon waits 30 minutes behind the hole for something to open up.

So true, we need to get a O-line coach that uses a much more aggressive blocking scheme, this is our teams biggest problem.

PA.

(10-03-2017, 11:01 PM)cincyfan429 Wrote: I think it shows that they should have never taken Mixon in the second round it was bad pick we had other needs that had to be filled.

Nah, Hill will be gone next year, needed another RB and Mixon could be a super star.

Would i loved a Center in the 2nd? Of course, but i like the Mixon pick and with Gio coming off of an ACL tear it was needed.

Could not of known Gio would look this good, no way of knowing this.

(10-04-2017, 01:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So true, we need to get a O-line coach that uses a much more aggressive blocking scheme, this is our teams biggest problem.

PA.

Scheme is not decided by position coaches. 

(10-04-2017, 02:09 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Scheme is not decided by position coaches. 

Then who is coaching this passive blocking scheme? Zamp is gone. Lazor? Marv is a Defensive coach, i doubt it is him.

What is PA's job then?

Coach up the Lineman?

That isn't happening either.

(10-04-2017, 02:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Then who is coaching this passive blocking scheme? Zamp is gone. Lazor? Marv is a Defensive coach, i doubt it is him.

What is PA's job then?

Coach up the Lineman?

That isn't happening either.

No you're totally right. 

The OL coaches does his thing with the OL.
The RB coach does his thing with RBs. 
The WR coach does his thing with WRs.

It's almost like they should create a job where you coordinate these things and get them to all work together 

(10-04-2017, 02:30 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No you're totally right. 

The OL coaches does his thing with the OL.
The RB coach does his thing with RBs. 
The WR coach does his thing with WRs.

It's almost like they should create a job where you coordinate these things and get them to all work together 

Then i hope Lazor gets more aggressive in the scheme then. This needs to change.

O-lineman prefer to block aggressively. Having our guys always play passive doesn't help our young guys gain confidence.

Would be nice to see a good pancake block once in awhile.

(10-04-2017, 02:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Then i hope Lazor gets more aggressive in the scheme then. This needs to change.

O-lineman prefer to block aggressively. Having our guys always play passive doesn't help our young guys gain confidence.

Would be nice to see a good pancake block once in awhile.

There were a few Sunday. Fisher had a few in the opener. 

Here's the thing: They've drafted tackles to run a ZBS. Athletic movers. 
They have running backs who fit a ZBS, Gio and 28.
They have a RB who doesn't fit a ZBS, Hill. 
They have a C who doesn't fit a ZBS, Bodine. 


Now, this is all moot because most of them are just bad at football. 
And that's all a scouting issue. We aren't drafting cohesively to build a productive unit.

When Hill is in, teams know it's a run. About 60% of the time with Hill in they run the ball. 
That makes it incredible difficult to run block when the defense can, with confidence, attack the run all out. 

They get jumps on lanes and it makes it that much more difficult to do anything super productive. 

Which is why this team looks 100% better when we run from the gun with Gio and 28

(10-04-2017, 02:44 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There were a few Sunday. Fisher had a few in the opener. 

Here's the thing: They've drafted tackles to run a ZBS. Athletic movers. 
They have running backs who fit a ZBS, Gio and 28.
They have a RB who doesn't fit a ZBS, Hill. 
They have a C who doesn't fit a ZBS, Bodine. 


Now, this is all moot because most of them are just bad at football. 
And that's all a scouting issue. We aren't drafting cohesively to build a productive unit.

When Hill is in, teams know it's a run. About 60% of the time with Hill in they run the ball. 
That makes it incredible difficult to run block when the defense can, with confidence, attack the run all out. 

They get jumps on lanes and it makes it that much more difficult to do anything super productive. 

Which is why this team looks 100% better when we run from the gun with Gio and 28

Completely agree with everything you say here.

Would like to see if TJ Johnson could do something at Center if Bodine is so bad in this zone blocking scheme.

Less Hill sounds like the way to go as well cause you are correct, it is extremely predictable when he is in.

This is his last year here anyways most likely.

(10-04-2017, 02:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree with everything you say here.

Would like to see if TJ Johnson could do something at Center if Bodine is so bad in this zone blocking scheme.

Less Hill sounds like the way to go as well cause you are correct, it is extremely predictable when he is in.

This is his last year here anyways most likely.

The thing about Johnson is, he's is bad also.

They had 3 good OL.
They let 2 of them leave. 

Fisher is making progress but he's way behind schedule because they kept jerking him around his first 2 years in and insisted on giving Ced RT last year when it should have been Fisher's spot. It made no ***** sense if Ced was slated to be the future LT to run him out at RT over Fisher. Both guys needed reps. 
Then this nonsense of "LT is Ced's natural position" despite him having always been a better RT in college. 
What a crock of shit. They bungled the whole process. Starts at the very top with Mike Brown hiring a small scouting department and it forces too much onto coaches for scouting. 
You can't be a full time coach and scout. Too many potential guys slip through the cracks and you can't watch enough on everyone to fully know. 
This is where the hate with Paul Alexander starts. And that isn't his fault. He shouldn't have to be worried about bringing in the talent and coaching it. 
It also creates the problem of his pet projects. It becomes an ego thing. 

(10-04-2017, 03:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The thing about Johnson is, he's is bad also.

They had 3 good OL.
They let 2 of them leave. 

Fisher is making progress but he's way behind schedule because they kept jerking him around his first 2 years in and insisted on giving Ced RT last year when it should have been Fisher's spot. It made no ***** sense if Ced was slated to be the future LT to run him out at RT over Fisher. Both guys needed reps. 
Then this nonsense of "LT is Ced's natural position" despite him having always been a better RT in college. 
What a crock of shit. They bungled the whole process. Starts at the very top with Mike Brown hiring a small scouting department and it forces too much onto coaches for scouting. 
You can't be a full time coach and scout. Too many potential guys slip through the cracks and you can't watch enough on everyone to fully know. 
This is where the hate with Paul Alexander starts. And that isn't his fault. He shouldn't have to be worried about bringing in the talent and coaching it. 
It also creates the problem of his pet projects. It becomes an ego thing. 

Either way, it's beyond time for a change at OL coach.

(10-04-2017, 03:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: Either way, it's beyond time for a change at OL coach.

(It won't change anything if he still has to coach/scout) 

(10-04-2017, 03:33 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: (It won't change anything if he still has to coach/scout) 

Maybe the next guy has a fear for his job, and gives up on pet projects if they fail and moves on instead of being an egomaniac about it.  I would hope anyway.....

(10-04-2017, 03:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe the next guy has a fear for his job, and gives up on pet projects if they fail and moves on instead of being an egomaniac about it.  I would hope anyway.....

You know good and well the next guy will be hand picked by Mikey 

(10-04-2017, 03:37 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You know good and well the next guy will be hand picked by Mikey 

 Prolly.......

(10-04-2017, 03:41 PM)Wyche Wrote:  Prolly.......

I truly admire your optimism though! 

(10-04-2017, 03:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The thing about Johnson is, he's is bad also.

They had 3 good OL.
They let 2 of them leave. 

Fisher is making progress but he's way behind schedule because they kept jerking him around his first 2 years in and insisted on giving Ced RT last year when it should have been Fisher's spot. It made no ***** sense if Ced was slated to be the future LT to run him out at RT over Fisher. Both guys needed reps. 
Then this nonsense of "LT is Ced's natural position" despite him having always been a better RT in college. 
What a crock of shit. They bungled the whole process. Starts at the very top with Mike Brown hiring a small scouting department and it forces too much onto coaches for scouting. 
You can't be a full time coach and scout. Too many potential guys slip through the cracks and you can't watch enough on everyone to fully know. 
This is where the hate with Paul Alexander starts. And that isn't his fault. He shouldn't have to be worried about bringing in the talent and coaching it. 
It also creates the problem of his pet projects. It becomes an ego thing. 

Still, might be better than Bodine. We have never let there be competition at the Center position since he got here, bogus.

Whatever happened to letting the best player win the job? TJ came in last year for Bodine in the Ravens game and played
well. Then they put Bodine right back in and he sucked. This is the stuff that really drives me nutz. But i guess you may be
right and this is not PA's fault. But Bodine WAS his handpicked Center and we traded up for the dude. Atleast this has been
my understanding from PA's own words. He is terrible at judging talent if this is the case. You said from the get go that
Bodine had little to no upside from what i remember.

Should of kept Whit for sure.

We do need a bigger scouting department. But we also need to move on from PA and Marv if we are ever going to win a
Playoff game IMHO.

(10-04-2017, 04:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Still, might be better than Bodine. We have never let there be competition at the Center position since he got here, bogus.

Whatever happened to letting the best player win the job? TJ came in last year for Bodine in the Ravens game and played
well. Then they put Bodine right back in and he sucked. This is the stuff that really drives me nutz. But i guess you may be
right and this is not PA's fault. But Bodine WAS his handpicked Center and we traded up for the dude. Atleast this has been
my understanding from PA's own words. He is terrible at judging talent if this is the case. You said from the get go that
Bodine had little to no upside from what i remember.

Should of kept Whit for sure.

We do need a bigger scouting department. But we also need to move on from PA and Marv if we are ever going to win a
Playoff game IMHO.

He isn't. It's different when a guy subs in and looks good. It's almost always a case of adrenaline or having fresher legs. But over time, the truth rings out. Teams pick up on his tendencies and habits. 
Bodine would actually be seen as a good player on your roster if he was a backup. 
He's durable and mostly reliable. If he had to play a 3 game stretch, you could work around it. 
But as a long term starter, he's just not good. 

It is a talent identification issue. And it is because we don't have a big scouting department and our coaches seem so heavily invested in it. This almost never works. Coaches just don't have the time to truly get into the nitty gritty and they fall in love with players at combines, workouts or interviews.
But it leaves out the issues you can see in 2 years of college game tape. 
I have no doubt Bodine is a smart, good man. He probably crushed interviews and wooed some coaches. 
But his tape at UNC showed a very limited player. 

We all have our flaws in scouting/identifying talent and it's about trying to overcome biases to see what the player really is. More eyes in the room helps that.
I know I have a "type" of OL. And even when I should know a guy has major issues, when they fit my "type" I tend to be a bit lenient on that player.
TJ Clemmings was a good example of that.

(10-04-2017, 04:34 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: He isn't. It's different when a guy subs in and looks good. It's almost always a case of adrenaline or having fresher legs. But over time, the truth rings out. Teams pick up on his tendencies and habits. 
Bodine would actually be seen as a good player on your roster if he was a backup. 
He's durable and mostly reliable. If he had to play a 3 game stretch, you could work around it. 
But as a long term starter, he's just not good. 

It is a talent identification issue. And it is because we don't have a big scouting department and our coaches seem so heavily invested in it. This almost never works. Coaches just don't have the time to truly get into the nitty gritty and they fall in love with players at combines, workouts or interviews.
But it leaves out the issues you can see in 2 years of college game tape. 
I have no doubt Bodine is a smart, good man. He probably crushed interviews and wooed some coaches. 
But his tape at UNC showed a very limited player. 

We all have our flaws in scouting/identifying talent and it's about trying to overcome biases to see what the player really is. More eyes in the room helps that.
I know I have a "type" of OL. And even when I should know a guy has major issues, when they fit my "type" I tend to be a bit lenient on that player.
TJ Clemmings was a good example of that.

Yeah, good point on adrenaline and fresh legs. TJ Johnson looked like shit against 3rd and 4th stringers in Preseason
before that so you are probably right. Just don't understand the lack of value the FO puts on the Center position.

Bodine actually might be a good backup. That is where he should be now.

His song has played out as far a being a starter. Need to draft a Center somewhat early next year.

Also agree about us all having our bias, i don't like this zone blocking scheme we have put in but if we are going to do
it then get players that fit that scheme atleast.

(10-04-2017, 05:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, good point on adrenaline and fresh legs. TJ Johnson looked like shit against 3rd and 4th stringers in Preseason
before that so you are probably right. Just don't understand the lack of value the FO puts on the Center position.

Bodine actually might be a good backup. That is where he should be now.

His song has played out as far a being a starter. Need to draft a Center somewhat early next year.

Also agree about us all having our bias, i don't like this zone blocking scheme we have put in but if we are going to do
it then get players that fit that scheme atleast.

It's really a talent issue, not a scheme issue. 
The scheme can work if your OL can make the blocks. Unfortunately, Ced and Bodine can't make most blocks that aren't directly in front of them or part of a double team. 
The RG issues hurt too. 

I also want to add how bad the WRs have been blocking and how that has played a huge role in why the run game looks even worse. It's not all on the OL right now

This isn't a surprise Gio has always been good between the 20s. Bernard is a perfect change of pace back that can do it all except have a heavy workload.