(10-10-2017, 07:25 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dak was just the first example that came to mind. Point is, Dalton not getting attention from the national media has nothing to do with his draft position or expectations coming into the league, and everything to do with his abysmal record in the playoffs and on the big stage in primetime  (for the most part). 

The prime time argument is old and tired...just look at Shake's signature.  

I completely agree about the playoff losses, but it is really just one that haunts me.  The San Diego game.  Gio's fumble.  A defense that was a sieve against the run.  Two INTs and a fumble by Andy.  That was "the one that got away".  

Even though the manner in which the 2015 game ended was the stuff of nightmares, I didn't see the team going far with McCarron anyway.  

The first two years, the team was just getting their feet wet and getting some experience and the Colts game was a MASH unit on the field due to injuries.  

That SD game, though....ugh.  So, in a nutshell, Dalton has very few supporters because of that one loss.  The history of the team long before him and the manner in which they lost in 15 is all placed on Dalton's shoulders because they look at him as though he CAN'T win the playoff game(s).  That is dead wrong.  He will end the criticism this year.  

(10-10-2017, 07:23 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: My ranking would have him


I take these guys over him:

-Brady
-Rodgers
-Brees
-Matt Ryan

And I see him as a virtual tie with Alex Smith, Matt Stafford, and Russell Wilson.

So, that basically means, in the Top 10.

Notably absent of that list of names:  Andrew Luck and Cam Newton.  I like Dalton over both of them.  Luck is the best comparison to Dalton.  His teams have been sorely lacking in offensive line and are thin in offensive weapons.  They have (historically) played in a much weaker division with the Titans and Jags being perennial doormats until just recently.

Dalton doesn't seem to get much credit for doing what he has done in (historically) the toughest division in the league.

If you put Andrew Luck on the current Bengals...do you think he'd perform better, worse, or the same as Dalton?

(10-10-2017, 07:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The prime time argument is old and tired...just look at Shake's signature.  

I completely agree about the playoff losses, but it is really just one that haunts me.  The San Diego game.  Gio's fumble.  A defense that was a sieve against the run.  Two INTs and a fumble by Andy.  That was "the one that got away".  

Even though the manner in which the 2015 game ended was the stuff of nightmares, I didn't see the team going far with McCarron anyway.  

The first two years, the team was just getting their feet wet and getting some experience and the Colts game was a MASH unit on the field due to injuries.  

That SD game, though....ugh.  So, in a nutshell, Dalton has very few supporters because of that one loss.  The history of the team long before him and the manner in which they lost in 15 is all placed on Dalton's shoulders because they look at him as though he CAN'T win the playoff game(s).  That is dead wrong.  He will end the criticism this year.  

I agree on that stuff. The 2015 game...what people forget is that our offense was putrid for 3 quarters then came alive in the 4th quarter. McCarron just simply put...wasn't that good.

Fans blame the QB for lack of a team success. It happened to Palmer too here. Marvin gets blamed too. Ultimately we have largely the same management team in place that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

(10-09-2017, 04:50 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I put him somewhere between 15-16.

I take these guys over him:
-Brady
-Alex Smith (11 TD 0 Int this year)
-Rodgers
-Brees
-Carr
-Cousins
-Newton
-Wentz
-Goff
-Stafford
-Dak Prescott
-Winston
-Russell Wilson
-Matt Ryan
-Roethlisberger (had 1 bad game but you'd still take him over Dalton.)

I think he falls into this list somewhere depending on preference. I think I'd take Watson over him...but not Manning and maybe Rivers.

-Eli Manning
-Rivers
-Watson

Here's the full list:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING

I take these guys over him as well:

- Brady
- Alex Smith (MVP currently, but playing on a better overall team)
- Rodgers 
- Brees  
- Carr
- Newton
- Wentz
- Goff
- Stafford
- Winston
- Russell Wilson (his playoff & Super Bowl history is the tiebreaker. Sue me, I like winners in the big games)
- Matt Ryan
- Roethlisberger 


- Dak Prescott (similar to Watsons reason)
- Watson  (only if I was starting over after blowing everything up, and keeping AJ for him)

Then...

- Cousins (flip flop, but give him AJ Green then who knows)
- Eli Manning (too old but & not nearly as good as Brees & Brady, but few years ago yes)
- Rivers (same reason as Manning)
- Luck (his injuries are mainly the reason he is here. He is definitely the better talent tho when fully healthy and on a competent team. Plus he has never had an AJ Green caliber receiver like some of those quarterbacks listed above have had for their entire careers) 

(10-10-2017, 12:55 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: First of all, Matt Ryan IS better than Dalton. 4 time Pro Bowler,
1st team All-Pro in 2016, MVP 2016, OROY 2008...

As for your second point, the media was all about Dak Prescott last year, and NOBODY saw his success coming. 

 
That MVP season is looking like a fluke. I'd still take Ryan over Dalton, but lets not act like the gap is gigantic.

Ryan has 5 INT's in his last 2 games, just to update ya. He's not the guy he was last year. He's only been that guy 1 year.

(10-10-2017, 09:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: If you put Andrew Luck on the current Bengals...do you think he'd perform better, worse, or the same as Dalton?

About the same. The Bengals line is just as shitty, the coaching is worse, run game just as bad, receivers are about the same despite AJ. TY Hilton is beasting even with Brissett, and Moncrief is much better than our #2. Doyle is probably = or better than Kroft.

Seriously...why do people think we're better than the Colts? Our offensive talent is horrific right now. Dalton is elevating the offense from "crap" to "good" and we're still doubting the guy with the evidence smacking us in the face.

(10-10-2017, 12:55 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: First of all, Matt Ryan IS better than Dalton. 4 time Pro Bowler,
1st team All-Pro in 2016, MVP 2016, OROY 2008...

As for your second point, the media was all about Dak Prescott last year, and NOBODY saw his success coming. 

Im not going to argue Ryan  but Prescott plays for the Cowboys.  That is why the media was on Prescott.

I like to separate QBs by tiers. And for me Dalton fits squarely among the third tier of QBs. (Names in no particular order)

Top tier: Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger

High tier: Stafford, Smith, Carr, Cousins, Manning, Newton, Ryan, Wilson, Luck

Mid tier: Dalton, Bradford, Flacco, Rivers, Winston, Cutler, Taylor, Palmer, Siemian, Mariota

Young Guns tier: Watson, Prescott, Trubisky, Wentz, Goff.

Dumpster fire tier: Hoyer, McCown, Kizer/Logan, Bortles.

The Young guns are all guys I take over Dalton if I'm starting a Franchise from scratch, but with under 2 years experience can't definitively say are better than Dalton (although anyone in their right mind takes Dak over Dalton)

(10-10-2017, 09:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: If you put Andrew Luck on the current Bengals...do you think he'd perform better, worse, or the same as Dalton?

Worse. The guy is as bad as Eifert and is useless on the bench injured. Also, his shoulder injury was serious so no telling if he ever comes back the old Luck he was early in his career.

To me Luck is the most overrated QB in the NFL.

(10-10-2017, 12:50 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Worse. The guy is as bad as Eifert and is useless on the bench injured. Also, his shoulder injury was serious so no telling if he ever comes back the old Luck he was early in his career.

And the old Luck performed worse than Andy. Good point on the injuries.

(10-10-2017, 12:42 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I like to separate QBs by tiers. And for me Dalton fits squarely among the third tier of QBs. (Names in no particular order)

Top tier: Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger

High tier: Stafford, Smith, Carr, Cousins, Manning, Newton, Ryan, Wilson, Luck

Mid tier: Dalton, Bradford, Flacco, Rivers, Winston, Cutler, Taylor, Palmer, Siemian, Mariota

Young Guns tier: Watson, Prescott, Trubisky, Wentz, Goff.

Dumpster fire tier: Hoyer, McCown, Kizer/Logan, Bortles.

The Young guns are all guys I take over Dalton if I'm starting a Franchise from scratch, but with under 2 years experience can't definitively say are better than Dalton (although anyone in their right mind takes Dak over Dalton)

A agree with the tier approach
 Top - Brady, Rodgers Brees
High - Ben R., Ryan

Mid - Stafford, Smith, Carr, Cousins, Newton, Dalton, Wilson, (Luck, but not higher due to health concerns and ability to stay on the field),Rivers, Winston, Mariota


I have 16 QB's ranked 16 or higher. Dalton could be anywhere between 10 to 16.

Young guns - Prescott, Wentz, Watson, Goff, Trubinski, Kizer

Low - Bradford, (can't stay healthy), Flacco, Palmer, Siemian, Taylor

dumpster Fire - Hoyer, McCown, Bortles, Cutler

(10-10-2017, 01:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: A agree with the tier approach
 Top - Brady, Rodgers Brees
High - Ben R., Ryan

Mid - Stafford, Smith, Carr, Cousins, Newton, Dalton, Wilson, (Luck, but not higher due to health concerns and ability to stay on the field),Rivers, Winston, Mariota


I have 16 QB's ranked 16 or higher. Dalton could be anywhere between 10 to 16.

Young guns - Prescott, Wentz, Watson, Goff, Trubinski, Kizer

Low - Bradford, (can't stay healthy), Flacco, Palmer, Siemian, Taylor

dumpster Fire - Hoyer, McCown, Bortles, Cutler

I'd say that's reasonable.

(10-10-2017, 12:55 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: First of all, Matt Ryan IS better than Dalton. 4 time Pro Bowler,
1st team All-Pro in 2016, MVP 2016, OROY 2008...

As for your second point, the media was all about Dak Prescott last year, and NOBODY saw his success coming. 

Overrated he is good because of the players around him.

(10-10-2017, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Overrated he is good because of the players around him.

Ryan WAS a #1 overall pick. He has a ton of physical talent. Same with Stafford. Same with Newton. Same with Winston.

From an arm strength perspective...they have more than Dalton.

(10-10-2017, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Overrated he is good because of the players around him.

People outside of Cincy say the same thing about Dalton having AJ Green. 

(10-10-2017, 04:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:  THE PISTONS
Ryan WAS a #1 overall pick. He has a ton of physical talent. Same with Stafford. Same with Newton. Same with Winston.

From an arm strength perspective...they have more than Dalton.

Drew Brees was a 2nd rounder and Brady was a 6th rounder. Dalton has just been better than all of those QBs outside of Ryan.

There's more to it than arm strength and height, or Jamarcus Russell and Brock Osweiler would be legends.

Maybe we need a subforum for these "rank the QBs" threads.

My list is based who I would take for this season and/or for the future:

1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Ryan
5. Wilson
6. Winston
7. Luck
8. Smith
9. Newton
10. Stafford
11. Dalton

Another season or two could move ahead of Dalton:
1. Watson
2. Wentz
3. Prescott
4. Goff

Over the hill and should hang’em up:
1. Manning
2. Rivers
3. Roethlisberger

(10-10-2017, 09:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: If you put Andrew Luck on the current Bengals...do you think he'd perform better, worse, or the same as Dalton?

Based on history that I have to go on...about the same or worse.

(10-10-2017, 05:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Drew Brees was a 2nd rounder and Brady was a 6th rounder. Dalton has just been better than all of those QBs outside of Ryan.

There's more to it than arm strength and height, or Jamarcus Russell and Brock Osweiler would be legends.

Newton was an MVP and made a Super Bowl run. Yes it was one year, but it's a hell of a lot more than Dalton has accomplished. And people love to bring up 2015 in Andy's favor, so it seems unfair to discount a standout season for other QBs.