(10-10-2017, 05:07 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: People outside of Cincy say the same thing about Dalton having AJ Green. 

And some in Cincy do as well... 

I've never wavered....10-13 range.

(10-11-2017, 01:50 AM)Millhouse Wrote: And some in Cincy do as well... 

No doubt having a great WR helps ANY QB.

(10-10-2017, 09:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Newton was an MVP and made a Super Bowl run. Yes it was one year, but it's a hell of a lot more than Dalton has accomplished. And people love to bring up 2015 in Andy's favor, so it seems unfair to discount a standout season for other QBs.

You're highlighting 1 year in a 7 year career and then try to excuse it by propping up some strawman about Andy fans bringing up 2015.

Andy has a career rating of 89.0. Cam has a career rating of 86.7.

Cam has a career completion % of 58.9. Dalton has completed 62.9%. Anything in the 50's is bad by today's standards. Dalton has been better in every facet you normally judge QB play by. Cam has better rushing stats. That's really about it.

Also, I've seen some anti-Andy guys on here claim that you judge QB's by their floor. If that's the case, Cam had a season with a 75.8 rating. Can you imagine if Andy had such a season? Andy's worst post-rookie season ended with an 83.5 rating. With a glut of injuries at receiver. Yet Andy got roasted for that...and it was a whopping 7.7 points better than Cam's 2016 season.

(10-11-2017, 11:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No doubt having a great WR helps ANY QB.

True, but having great coaching helps other QB's. Or being surrounded by good weapons. Or having a great o-line and/or run game. Dalton literally just has AJ Green right now. AJ Green and steaming piles of crap just about everywhere else.

AJ Green doesn't make up for everything else being subpar or worse for most of Dalton's career. If anything, it makes things rougher because Dalton has to force it to his one talented guy who will inevitably be heavily covered.

(10-11-2017, 11:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're highlighting 1 year in a 7 year career and then try to excuse it by propping up some strawman about Andy fans bringing up 2015.

Andy has a career rating of 89.0. Cam has a career rating of 86.7.

Cam has a career completion % of 58.9. Dalton has completed 62.9%. Anything in the 50's is bad by today's standards. Dalton has been better in every facet you normally judge QB play by. Cam has better rushing stats. That's really about it.

Also, I've seen some anti-Andy guys on here claim that you judge QB's by their floor. If that's the case, Cam had a season with a 75.8 rating. Can you imagine if Andy had such a season? Andy's worst post-rookie season ended with an 83.5 rating. With a glut of injuries at receiver. Yet Andy got roasted for that...and it was a whopping 7.7 points better than Cam's 2016 season.

Not to mention it was probably the worst MVP QB seasons in recent times. The last 5 QBs to win MVP...

'11 Aaron Rodgers... 68.3% completion / 4,643 yards (9.2 AVG) / 45 TD, 6 INT / 122.5 QB Rating
'13 Peyton Manning... 68.3% completion / 5,477 yards (8.3 AVG) / 55 TD, 10 INT / 115.1 QB Rating
'14 Aaron Rodgers... 65.6% completion / 4,381 yards (8.4 AVG) / 38 TD, 5 INT / 112.1 QB Rating
'15 Cam Newton... 59.8% completion / 3,837 yards (7.8 AVG) / 35 TD, 10 INT / 99.4 QB Rating
'16 Matt Ryan... 69.9% completion / 4,944 yards (9.3 AVG) / 38 TD, 7 INT / 117.1 QB Rating

One of those years are not like the others. The last time a QB won MVP without....
4k+ yards was 2010
8.0+ AVG was 2010
QB Rating of at least 100.0 was 2009
>35 Passing TD was 2008
65%+ completion was 2003
60%+ completion was 1997

One or two of those isn't a bad thing, but when you start adding up all the various worst-since together, it's not so hot.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Also just tonight he put up 53.8% completion / 239 yards (4.6 AVG) / 1 TD, 3 INT / 48.5 QB Rating in a loss.

(10-11-2017, 11:31 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: True, but having great coaching helps other QB's. Or being surrounded by good weapons. Or having a great o-line and/or run game. Dalton literally just has AJ Green right now. AJ Green and steaming piles of crap just about everywhere else.

AJ Green doesn't make up for everything else being subpar or worse for most of Dalton's career. If anything, it makes things rougher because Dalton has to force it to his one talented guy who will inevitably be heavily covered.

It's always nice when someone else sees it too. Outside of AJ Green, the closest thing to a great weapon Dalton has had was Eifert and he's going to miss the rest of the season again. Everyone gets wrapped up talking about all of these incredible weapons Dalton has, but it's simply not true. Then they want to use the round players were drafted in like that matters. Ced and Fisher help prove that.

Dalton has helped to elevate the play of all of his receivers except Green. When you look at their numbers, their best years or second best years have been with Dalton. He's a good QB. I have no idea why some of his own team's fans try so hard to tear him down. No matter how you break down the guys numbers, he's a good QB. Instead, he puts up a 145 QB rating in a game and we have to nitpick a missed throw here or there, or he missed seeing a receiver. He plays one of the top defenses in the entire league and his elite receiver helped turn the ball over 3 times, but it's okay Green did that because he put up monster numbers. Everyone wants to harp on a bad decision by Dalton that was almost picked off.

Then of course we have to hear about the Ravens game. Yeah, he threw 4 picks. Unfortunately, it happens to every QB. Ben just threw 5 include 2 pick 6s. Of course that doesn't count because it doesn't help advance the Bengals fans narrative that their QB sucks.

(10-13-2017, 01:12 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Also just tonight he put up 53.8% completion / 239 yards (4.6 AVG) / 1 TD, 3 INT / 48.5 QB Rating in a loss.

You obviously missed the memo that only Dalton has bad games and that he has them more often than any other QB in the history of football. Nevermind it can be debunked through statistics because statistics don't count, it's all eye test. Though eye test can't be used in an argument because it's subjective, but it's okay when it's used to bash Dalton. With Dalton, stats mean absolutely nothing. Bad stats, games, starts, seasons, or anything by any other QB not named Dalton don't matter either. Those guys had to deal with injuries, or subpar coaching, or lack of weapons, or any other reason that would hurt a QBs numbers. Those things don't work for Dalton though. He is just a horrible QB who is preventing the next Tom Brady from getting a fair chance to start.

Sorry. I know that reads like junk, but that's a solid synopsis of what Bengals fans say about their QB all rolled into one, incoherent paragraph.

(10-13-2017, 10:02 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: It's always nice when someone else sees it too. Outside of AJ Green, the closest thing to a great weapon Dalton has had was Eifert and he's going to miss the rest of the season again. Everyone gets wrapped up talking about all of these incredible weapons Dalton has, but it's simply not true. Then they want to use the round players were drafted in like that matters. Ced and Fisher help prove that.

Dalton has helped to elevate the play of all of his receivers except Green. When you look at their numbers, their best years or second best years have been with Dalton. He's a good QB. I have no idea why some of his own team's fans try so hard to tear him down. No matter how you break down the guys numbers, he's a good QB. Instead, he puts up a 145 QB rating in a game and we have to nitpick a missed throw here or there, or he missed seeing a receiver. He plays one of the top defenses in the entire league and his elite receiver helped turn the ball over 3 times, but it's okay Green did that because he put up monster numbers. Everyone wants to harp on a bad decision by Dalton that was almost picked off.

Then of course we have to hear about the Ravens game. Yeah, he threw 4 picks. Unfortunately, it happens to every QB. Ben just threw 5 include 2 pick 6s. Of course that doesn't count because it doesn't help advance the Bengals fans narrative that their QB sucks.

Or put up a 124.1 QB Rating against the Packers, AT Packers, and lost in OT because Marv went full conservative with a lead at halftime... yet people railed on him on inaccuracy for a missed throw or two in a game where he had a 77.8% completion.

(10-13-2017, 10:02 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: It's always nice when someone else sees it too. Outside of AJ Green, the closest thing to a great weapon Dalton has had was Eifert and he's going to miss the rest of the season again. Everyone gets wrapped up talking about all of these incredible weapons Dalton has, but it's simply not true. Then they want to use the round players were drafted in like that matters. Ced and Fisher help prove that.

Dalton has helped to elevate the play of all of his receivers except Green. When you look at their numbers, their best years or second best years have been with Dalton. He's a good QB. I have no idea why some of his own team's fans try so hard to tear him down. No matter how you break down the guys numbers, he's a good QB. Instead, he puts up a 145 QB rating in a game and we have to nitpick a missed throw here or there, or he missed seeing a receiver. He plays one of the top defenses in the entire league and his elite receiver helped turn the ball over 3 times, but it's okay Green did that because he put up monster numbers. Everyone wants to harp on a bad decision by Dalton that was almost picked off.

Then of course we have to hear about the Ravens game. Yeah, he threw 4 picks. Unfortunately, it happens to every QB. Ben just threw 5 include 2 pick 6s. Of course that doesn't count because it doesn't help advance the Bengals fans narrative that their QB sucks.

It is sad that there are so few people who know that Dalton hasn't had much to work with since he's been here. 2013 and 2015 were his only two years with good weapons around him. He's never really had a run game, and only 2 years where he had a solid #2 WR in Marvin Jones. People just gobbles up Hobson's hype articles about people like Core, Malone, Cobi Hamilton, Kumerow, Binns, and probably a few other people I'm forgetting about.

(10-13-2017, 10:12 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It is sad that there are so few people who know that Dalton hasn't had much to work with since he's been here. 2013 and 2015 were his only two years with good weapons around him. He's never really had a run game, and only 2 years where he had a solid #2 WR in Marvin Jones. People just gobbles up Hobson's hype articles about people like Core, Malone, Cobi Hamilton, Kumerow, Binns, and probably a few other people I'm forgetting about.

I made a thread comparing what Dalton has been surrounded with compared to what other QBs in the league have been surrounded with. The one responses that stuck out to me was someone saying that's the breaks and Dalton should elevate the play of those around him. The guy can't win with his own fans.

Anyone still putting Dalton ahead of Wentz...?

(10-13-2017, 10:19 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone still putting Dalton ahead of Wentz...?

Still too early to tell, but if Wentz keeps it up then he's defiantly better. His rookie year he was mediocre, but so far this year he's been on fire. He's on pace to have 4224 yards, 34 TDs, 8 INTs and a 99.6 rating.

(10-13-2017, 10:19 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone still putting Dalton ahead of Wentz...?

They'll argue that Wentz hasn't done it long enough...but I certainly think that if I was starting a team I'd want Wentz ahead of Dalton.

I think a Bengals message board is the only place you'd see Dalton ranked ahead of Wentz.

(10-13-2017, 10:24 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They'll argue that Wentz hasn't done it long enough...but I certainly think that if I was starting a team I'd want Wentz ahead of Dalton.

I think a Bengals message board is the only place you'd see Dalton ranked ahead of Wentz.

That's a fair argument. Make no mistake, Wentz looks great this year. He looks very much improved over last season. I'd like to wait and see if he keeps it up for the rest of the season before I say he's better than Dalton.

Bengals fans were putting Wentz over Dalton last year when Dalton had the better season. 

Surprised to see Cousins on people list. Let us remember the first thing he said when Gruden was hired was he wanted him to make him into Dalton as that was a qb he looked up to, admired, and hoped to be as good of qb as Dalton.

(10-13-2017, 10:24 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They'll argue that Wentz hasn't done it long enough...but I certainly think that if I was starting a team I'd want Wentz ahead of Dalton.

I think a Bengals message board is the only place you'd see Dalton ranked ahead of Wentz.

Wentz rookie year was very underwhelming. 3782 yards, 6.2 YPA, 16 TDs, 14 INTs, 79.3 rating. That's a worse year than any year Dalton has had. He has looked great so far this year though. If he keeps it up then he's better, but he DOES have to prove it, because you can't judge someone just from 6 games.

(10-13-2017, 10:19 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone still putting Dalton ahead of Wentz...?

Have him do it for two years and then there's no question I will put him ahead of Dalton. Heck, he hasn't even done it for a single year yet.

(10-13-2017, 10:23 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Still too early to tell, but if Wentz keeps it up then he's defiantly better. His rookie year he was mediocre, but so far this year he's been on fire.

(10-13-2017, 10:24 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They'll argue that Wentz hasn't done it long enough...but I certainly think that if I was starting a team I'd want Wentz ahead of Dalton.

I think a Bengals message board is the only place you'd see Dalton ranked ahead of Wentz.

Yeah, I am not ready to crown Wentz after 6 games of this season. People were ready to crown him a franchise QB after 4 games last year when he put up a 103.5 QB rating.. and then he put up a 72.5 QB Rating over the other 12 games to finish with a 79.3 QB Rating for the whole season.

Dalton had a 80.4 QB Rating his rookie year.

People lift up Wentz for 6 games, yet forget Dalton's 13 games of 106.2 QB Rating in 2015 and 116.2 QB Rating in the 3 games since Lazor took over.

Dalton was legitimately an MVP candidate in 2015 before he broke his thumb, and then got saddled with what we now know as probably THE worst OC in the entire league. When he got fired, he went right back to an extremely high level of play.

(10-13-2017, 10:36 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Have him do it for two years and then there's no question I will put him ahead of Dalton. Heck, he hasn't even done it for a single year yet.




Yeah, I am not ready to crown Wentz after 6 games of this season. People were ready to crown him a franchise QB after 4 games last year when he put up a 103.5 QB rating.. and then he put up a 72.5 QB Rating over the other 12 games to finish with a 79.3 QB Rating for the whole season.

Dalton had a 80.4 QB Rating his rookie year.

People lift up Wentz for 6 games, yet forget Dalton's 13 games of 106.2 QB Rating in 2015 and 116.2 QB Rating in the 3 games since Lazor took over.

Dalton was legitimately an MVP candidate in 2015 before he broke his thumb, and then got saddled with what we now know as probably THE worst OC in the entire league. When he got fired, he went right back to an extremely high level of play.

Good points.

Progression over a career is a key factor too. Does a QB improve from Year 1 to Year 2 to Year 3.

I honestly don't think Dalton has progressed much from his rookie year. He came into the Pro's and had a nice rookie season. It's probably more on coaching than Dalton though.

(10-13-2017, 10:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Good points.

Progression over a career is a key factor too. Does a QB improve from Year 1 to Year 2 to Year 3.

I honestly don't think Dalton has progressed much from his rookie year. He came into the Pro's and had a nice rookie season. It's probably more on coaching than Dalton though.

Regression over a career is key too. There are plenty of QBs that are good their first year or so and then fall off of the map. RGIII, Kaepernick, Matt Cassel, Nick Foles, and I'm sure there's a lot more that I'm not remembering.