Well the OP was most definitely a troll, but we do have an issue with our 1st rounders lately.

Ross
Ogbuehi
WJax
Dennard
DreKirk
Andre Smith

This is shaping up to be the 4th straight year we got absolutely nothing from our top pick. I've strongly disagreed with anyone saying WR wasn't a need (it should be abundantly clear right now), but that just makes it even more disappointing that Ross hasn't been ready to go.

Some of the guys on this list wound up being productive players, so I'm not giving up on Ross (that'd be silly at this point)...but we're not so good a team that we can afford to have our top picks develop for 2-3 years and lose most of those affordable rookie contracts in the process. They need to produce right away. If the coaches can't get them to produce, then that's a coaching problem. If they're not healthy at draft time, maybe we should avoid them.

(10-16-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well the OP was most definitely a troll, but we do have an issue with our 1st rounders lately.

Ross
Ogbuehi
WJax
Dennard
DreKirk
Andre Smith

This is shaping up to be the 4th straight year we got absolutely nothing from our top pick. I've strongly disagreed with anyone saying WR wasn't a need (it should be abundantly clear right now), but that just makes it even more disappointing that Ross hasn't been ready to go.

Some of the guys on this list wound up being productive players, so I'm not giving up on Ross (that'd be silly at this point)...but we're not so good a team that we can afford to have our top picks develop for 2-3 years and lose most of those affordable rookie contracts in the process. They need to produce right away. If the coaches can't get them to produce, then that's a coaching problem. If they're not healthy at draft time, maybe we should avoid them.

You know, we've seen a lot of people saying the Bengals should have taken someone else besides John Ross in the first. I think that's been beaten up enough to show that there really weren't many other obvious options that didn't have their own health concerns and were considered elite players besides maybe Howard but there's already another thread discussing him.

I think what kind of shocked me was taking Josh Malone in Round 4 vs another position/player. There were plenty of fine TEs left (specifically George Kittle) or OL. Given we knew that Ross would be recovering from injury all offseason, you'd think they'd have at least targeted a WR that could have contributed at least SOMETHING immediately rather than someone who is such a project as Josh Malone. It's sad that he's been a healthy inactive every game when all the other WRs besides AJ have been doing so poor and John Ross hasn't been able to play.

(10-16-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well the OP was most definitely a troll, but we do have an issue with our 1st rounders lately.

Ross
Ogbuehi
WJax
Dennard
DreKirk
Andre Smith

This is shaping up to be the 4th straight year we got absolutely nothing from our top pick. I've strongly disagreed with anyone saying WR wasn't a need (it should be abundantly clear right now), but that just makes it even more disappointing that Ross hasn't been ready to go.

Some of the guys on this list wound up being productive players, so I'm not giving up on Ross (that'd be silly at this point)...but we're not so good a team that we can afford to have our top picks develop for 2-3 years and lose most of those affordable rookie contracts in the process. They need to produce right away. If the coaches can't get them to produce, then that's a coaching problem. If they're not healthy at draft time, maybe we should avoid them.

Especially when we aren't active players in FA.

(10-16-2017, 01:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You know, we've seen a lot of people saying the Bengals should have taken someone else besides John Ross in the first. I think that's been beaten up enough to show that there really weren't many other obvious options that didn't have their own health concerns and were considered elite players besides maybe Howard but there's already another thread discussing him.

I think what kind of shocked me was taking Josh Malone in Round 4 vs another position/player. There were plenty of fine TEs left (specifically George Kittle) or OL. Given we knew that Ross would be recovering from injury all offseason, you'd think they'd have at least targeted a WR that could have contributed at least SOMETHING immediately rather than someone who is such a project as Josh Malone. It's sad that he's been a healthy inactive every game when all the other WRs besides AJ have been doing so poor and John Ross hasn't been able to play.

Yeah this year there were a lot of players who were injured or not productive, so we're far from alone this year. It's still a major trend for us lately though.

I was pretty disappointed (to say the least) that we didn't draft an o-lineman. Especially considering......

(10-16-2017, 01:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: Especially when we aren't active players in FA.

...this. This is the real problem. You can get away with slowly developing rookies when you actually use free agency the way 95% of the league does.

(10-16-2017, 01:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: Especially when we aren't active players in FA.

You sound just like me.

If we'd go out and sign a capable player or two in free agency every year...I wouldn't complain about the developmental guys.

The Bengals draft positions that they know they'll be losing in free agency because they don't want to pay them in 2-3 years. They don't seem to draft to make the team better RIGHT NOW.

Yeah occasionally they strike lighting in a bottle and get a Carl Lawson...but it's an extreme anamoly. And IF he continues to be good...guess who they'll decide they don't want to pay $15 million a year for...

(10-16-2017, 01:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah this year there were a lot of players who were injured or not productive, so we're far from alone this year. It's still a major trend for us lately though.

I was pretty disappointed (to say the least) that we didn't draft an o-lineman. Especially considering......


...this. This is the real problem. You can get away with slowly developing rookies when you actually use free agency the way 95% of the league does.

Yes. Basically the way we 1) Don't sign Tier 2 and 3 free agents and 2) Don't retain some of our core free agents letting them walk for Comp Picks...makes us have to have a Good to Great draft EVERY YEAR to maintain a talented roster.

I've posted all the guys we've lost over the past 2 years. We clearly have not replaced them all. Yes - Someone will start that we likely drafted...but that doesn't mean that they are a quality starter.

For instance, people see Nick Vigil's tackle stats and think he's awesome. He's rated 47.6 by PFF. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/nick-vigil/10721. Vigil is a TERRIBLE LB.

Andrew Billings: ranked 50.0 or Poor. Billings has been a TERRIBLE DT. https://staging.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/andrew-billings/10756

(10-16-2017, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes. Basically the way we 1) Don't sign Tier 2 and 3 free agents and 2) Don't retain some of our core free agents letting them walk for Comp Picks...makes us have to have a Good to Great draft EVERY YEAR to maintain a talented roster.

I've posted all the guys we've lost over the past 2 years. We clearly have not replaced them all. Yes - Someone will start that we likely drafted...but that doesn't mean that they are a quality starter.

I remember being so excited when the Bengals got PJ Dawson and Marcus Hardison. I really thought they found their future replacement (and upgrade) for Maualuga and also heir to Geno that could play next to him in 3rd and longs while he's still in Cincy.

Boy, was I wrong.

(10-16-2017, 01:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I remember being so excited when the Bengals got PJ Dawson and Marcus Hardison. I really thought they found their future replacement (and upgrade) for Maualuga and also heir to Geno that could play next to him in 3rd and longs while he's still in Cincy.

Boy, was I wrong.

They're very good getting us fans hyped up about their drafts. It's more a marketing strategy than anything else.

IF you don't rely on free agency much...draft picks are the other way you add to a roster.

(10-16-2017, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes. Basically the way we 1) Don't sign Tier 2 and 3 free agents and 2) Don't retain some of our core free agents letting them walk for Comp Picks...makes us have to have a Good to Great draft EVERY YEAR to maintain a talented roster.

I've posted all the guys we've lost over the past 2 years. We clearly have not replaced them all. Yes - Someone will start that we likely drafted...but that doesn't mean that they are a quality starter.

For instance, people see Nick Vigil's tackle stats and think he's awesome. He's rated 47.6 by PFF. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/nick-vigil/10721. Vigil is a TERRIBLE LB.

Andrew Billings: ranked 50.0 or Poor. Billings has been a TERRIBLE DT. https://staging.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/andrew-billings/10756

Yep. You, me, Wyche and a few others have been harping on this for years. I knew we were treading water by avoiding FA and relying 100% on the draft, but some didn't want to hear about it. They bought into the Hobspin nonsense about "model model" and how the Bengals were doing things the right way.

This team still has a good core with Andy, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Burfict and a solid secondary...but the rest of the roster has fallen off a bit...mainly the o-line, which has been criminally neglected. That core is still good enough to make us competitive even with the o-line, but it's obvious we're not going anywhere even if we manage to scrape our way to the playoffs. 

So basically that great core of players will eventually be remembered as good teams that always disappointed in the end. Similar to the core of Carson, Chad, TJ, Rudi, Justin Smith, Simmons, Deltha and Tory James. That core had the same problems. (1) Marvin is synonymous with choking and (2) Mike wouldn't spend to bring them help. In the end, the defense never got the help that Chad and (probably) Carson wanted, the o-line fell apart and that was that. 

Lather, rinse, repeat. Here we are 9 years later in the exact same scenario.

For some reason, most fans blame the players. Which enables the teflon GM to keep being a stubborn idiot.

(10-16-2017, 02:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They're very good getting us fans hyped up about their drafts. It's more a marketing strategy than anything else.

IF you don't rely on free agency much...draft picks are the other way you add to a roster.

The Bengals didn't do anything to hype me up for Dawson and Hardison. I was hyped from all the reading and watching of both players leading up to the draft. I thought they were good selections.

(10-16-2017, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes. Basically the way we 1) Don't sign Tier 2 and 3 free agents and 2) Don't retain some of our core free agents letting them walk for Comp Picks...makes us have to have a Good to Great draft EVERY YEAR to maintain a talented roster.

I've posted all the guys we've lost over the past 2 years. We clearly have not replaced them all. Yes - Someone will start that we likely drafted...but that doesn't mean that they are a quality starter.

For instance, people see Nick Vigil's tackle stats and think he's awesome. He's rated 47.6 by PFF. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/nick-vigil/10721. Vigil is a TERRIBLE LB.

Andrew Billings: ranked 50.0 or Poor. Billings has been a TERRIBLE DT. https://staging.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/andrew-billings/10756

 I would like to see what makes Virgil a terrible player according to PFF because from what I have seen is he is a solid to good player.

(10-16-2017, 01:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You sound just like me.

If we'd go out and sign a capable player or two in free agency every year...I wouldn't complain about the developmental guys.

The Bengals draft positions that they know they'll be losing in free agency because they don't want to pay them in 2-3 years. They don't seem to draft to make the team better RIGHT NOW.

Yeah occasionally they strike lighting in a bottle and get a Carl Lawson...but it's an extreme anamoly. And IF he continues to be good...guess who they'll decide they don't want to pay $15 million a year for...

Brother, I've been on the pain train with Son of Paul a long time.....not by choice.

If he would just augment the roster here and there with a couple of top tier FAs (or pay our own that we let slip away), from time to time, I wouldn't gripe much either.

No one is asking the Bengals to go all Dan Snyder from a couple years ago either....but damn, could we play in day 1 FA just once or twice to take a shot at the hardware FFS?

(10-16-2017, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: For instance, people see Nick Vigil's tackle stats and think he's awesome. He's rated 47.6 by PFF. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/nick-vigil/10721. Vigil is a TERRIBLE LB.

Do you have his grades for every game this year? I wonder if the first game brings down his average on the year. He has look good over the last few weeks. 

(10-16-2017, 02:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: Brother, I've been on the pain train with Son of Paul a long time.....not by choice.

If he would just augment the roster here and there with a couple of top tier FAs (or pay our own that we let slip away), from time to time, I wouldn't gripe much either.

No one is asking the Bengals to go all Dan Snyder from a couple years ago either....but damn, could we play in day 1 FA just once or twice to take a shot at the hardware FFS?

A glaring issue - The Bengals are 30th in cap spent on offensive line. Their highest paid player (Boling) doesn't even account for $5 mill against the cap, ranking the 74th highest paid player on the OL across the NFL based on average salary. Most teams have 2-3 players on OL being paid higher than him.
Yet the Bengals have 42% of their cap spent on the offensive side as whole.
How, you may ask?
Primarily tied up in WR, in which the Bengals are 6th highest in the league at $24.31 mill. $21.6 mill of that is being occupied by three WRs: AJ Green ($13.5 mill - justified), LaFell ($5 mill - garbage this year), and John Ross ($3.1 mill - unable to play due to injuries). The glaring one out of this is LaFell, who I'd much rather see cut in the offseason and that saved cap go toward OL.

The Bengals also have a lot of money tied up into defense (48.59% - 6th highest).
They are paying a lot of heavy hitters to account for this: Atkins ($10.6 mil - justified), Kirkpatrick ($9.38 mill - meh not worth that much, but not a terrible deal), Burfict ($8.3 mill - justified?), Adam Jones ($7.39 mill - justified?), Dunlap ($7.25 mill - justified), Iloka ($5.4 mill - fair), Michael Johnson ($5.12 mill - not worth the role he's in now), Minter ($4.25 mill - not worth the role he's playing), Williams ($4 mill - fair?).

Cut bait with those being (vastly) overpaid and/or underperforming, invest that into OL and maybe a WR that can actually contribute well, and we should see the offense improve. The defense may take a hit, but I'd gladly take that to be solid and balanced on offense.

(10-16-2017, 02:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. You, me, Wyche and a few others have been harping on this for years. I knew we were treading water by avoiding FA and relying 100% on the draft, but some didn't want to hear about it. They bought into the Hobspin nonsense about "model model" and how the Bengals were doing things the right way.

This team still has a good core with Andy, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Burfict and a solid secondary...but the rest of the roster has fallen off a bit...mainly the o-line, which has been criminally neglected. That core is still good enough to make us competitive even with the o-line, but it's obvious we're not going anywhere even if we manage to scrape our way to the playoffs. 

So basically that great core of players will eventually be remembered as good teams that always disappointed in the end. Similar to the core of Carson, Chad, TJ, Rudi, Justin Smith, Simmons, Deltha and Tory James. That core had the same problems. (1) Marvin is synonymous with choking and (2) Mike wouldn't spend to bring them help. In the end, the defense never got the help that Chad and (probably) Carson wanted, the o-line fell apart and that was that. 

Lather, rinse, repeat. Here we are 9 years later in the exact same scenario.

For some reason, most fans blame the players. Which enables the teflon GM to keep being a stubborn idiot.

The telling thing is we've had 5 playoff wins in 50 years and NONE since modern free agency. The Steelers have appeared in 16 AFC Championship games.

The way we do things here is not normal. No other teams shun free agency. No other teams tout compensatory picks like they are gold. Other teams have scouts.

When will the rest of the fans wake up? Instead they come up with conspiracies where the league wants the Steelers and Patriots to win. And talk about bad luck.

Hmmm...seems to me like the teams that invest resources into winning and that are well managed generally win.

(10-16-2017, 03:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A glaring issue - The Bengals are 30th in cap spent on offensive line. Their highest paid player (Boling) doesn't even account for $5 mill against the cap, ranking the 74th highest paid player on the OL across the NFL based on average salary. Most teams have 2-3 players on OL being paid higher than him.
Yet the Bengals have 42% of their cap spent on the offensive side as whole.
How, you may ask?
Primarily tied up in WR, in which the Bengals are 6th highest in the league at $24.31 mill. $21.6 mill of that is being occupied by three WRs: AJ Green ($13.5 mill - justified), LaFell ($5 mill - garbage this year), and John Ross ($3.1 mill - unable to play due to injuries). The glaring one out of this is LaFell, who I'd much rather see cut in the offseason and that saved cap go toward OL.

The Bengals also have a lot of money tied up into defense (48.59% - 6th highest).
They are paying a lot of heavy hitters to account for this: Atkins ($10.6 mil - justified), Kirkpatrick ($9.38 mill - meh not worth that much, but not a terrible deal), Burfict ($8.3 mill - justified?), Adam Jones ($7.39 mill - justified?), Dunlap ($7.25 mill - justified), Iloka ($5.4 mill - fair), Michael Johnson ($5.12 mill - not worth the role he's in now), Minter ($4.25 mill - not worth the role he's playing), Williams ($4 mill - fair?).

Cut bait with those being (vastly) overpaid and/or underperforming, invest that into OL and maybe a WR that can actually contribute well, and we should see the offense improve. The defense may take a hit, but I'd gladly take that to be solid and balanced on offense.

I see alot of defensive players on that list of not worth the role and vastly overpaid...

(10-16-2017, 03:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A glaring issue - The Bengals are 30th in cap spent on offensive line. Their highest paid player (Boling) doesn't even account for $5 mill against the cap, ranking the 74th highest paid player on the OL across the NFL based on average salary. Most teams have 2-3 players on OL being paid higher than him.
Yet the Bengals have 42% of their cap spent on the offensive side as whole.
How, you may ask?
Primarily tied up in WR, in which the Bengals are 6th highest in the league at $24.31 mill. $21.6 mill of that is being occupied by three WRs: AJ Green ($13.5 mill - justified), LaFell ($5 mill - garbage this year), and John Ross ($3.1 mill - unable to play due to injuries). The glaring one out of this is LaFell, who I'd much rather see cut in the offseason and that saved cap go toward OL.

The Bengals also have a lot of money tied up into defense (48.59% - 6th highest).
They are paying a lot of heavy hitters to account for this: Atkins ($10.6 mil - justified), Kirkpatrick ($9.38 mill - meh not worth that much, but not a terrible deal), Burfict ($8.3 mill - justified?), Adam Jones ($7.39 mill - justified?), Dunlap ($7.25 mill - justified), Iloka ($5.4 mill - fair), Michael Johnson ($5.12 mill - not worth the role he's in now), Minter ($4.25 mill - not worth the role he's playing), Williams ($4 mill - fair?).

Cut bait with those being (vastly) overpaid and/or underperforming, invest that into OL and maybe a WR that can actually contribute well, and we should see the offense improve. The defense may take a hit, but I'd gladly take that to be solid and balanced on offense.

The whole NFL is having these problems. There isn't really one team in the NFL without a glaring weakness. Philly may be the closest to it right now. 

This is the weakest the NFL has been in a long time. Once Brady retires the mediocrity is going to be even more obvious because Im not seeing a Hall of Fame type QB outside of Rodgers.

We have been a good and deep enough team not to have to throw every rookie into the fire right away. We have been drafting for the future.. And its arriving a little more every year.

(10-16-2017, 03:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A glaring issue - The Bengals are 30th in cap spent on offensive line. Their highest paid player (Boling) doesn't even account for $5 mill against the cap, ranking the 74th highest paid player on the OL across the NFL based on average salary. Most teams have 2-3 players on OL being paid higher than him.
Yet the Bengals have 42% of their cap spent on the offensive side as whole.
How, you may ask?
Primarily tied up in WR, in which the Bengals are 6th highest in the league at $24.31 mill. $21.6 mill of that is being occupied by three WRs: AJ Green ($13.5 mill - justified), LaFell ($5 mill - garbage this year), and John Ross ($3.1 mill - unable to play due to injuries). The glaring one out of this is LaFell, who I'd much rather see cut in the offseason and that saved cap go toward OL.

The Bengals also have a lot of money tied up into defense (48.59% - 6th highest).
They are paying a lot of heavy hitters to account for this: Atkins ($10.6 mil - justified), Kirkpatrick ($9.38 mill - meh not worth that much, but not a terrible deal), Burfict ($8.3 mill - justified?), Adam Jones ($7.39 mill - justified?), Dunlap ($7.25 mill - justified), Iloka ($5.4 mill - fair), Michael Johnson ($5.12 mill - not worth the role he's in now), Minter ($4.25 mill - not worth the role he's playing), Williams ($4 mill - fair?).

Cut bait with those being (vastly) overpaid and/or underperforming, invest that into OL and maybe a WR that can actually contribute well, and we should see the offense improve. The defense may take a hit, but I'd gladly take that to be solid and balanced on offense.

 your GLARING issues is due to guys being on Rookie Deals...  Only A Smith and Boiling aren't still on their rookie deals.   that money moved to other positions for now and in a year or two the price of our OL will go way back up. 

You don't cut first and 2nd round talent without putting them on the Field.

(10-16-2017, 12:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And that's the expectation for most teams...let alone for a team that doesn't really use free agency to fill needs.

Some Bengals fans move the target after the arrow missed to try to justify things.

I guarantee you the Bengals thought Ross would be contributing by now.

What is really frustrating is the bullshit cryptic answers Marvin gives when asked about him. Like the fans don't deserve to know why our 1st round pick , who just happens to be the fastest guy in Nfl history (by 40 time), is on the sideline when we are in desperate need of a number 2.  

Is he hurt or is he a slow learner. If he is a slow learner then why couldn't you figure that out with all the time you spent with him before the draft. Why can't the coaching staff run some plays that aren't that complicated for him like " Hey you!  Run as far as you can as fast as you can and we will throw it to you"