Our drafts have yielded incredibly poor results of late.
We've blamed coordinators.
We've blamed coaches.
We've blamed players.

But Tobin never seems to get blame.
He got a TON of credit after the 11/12 drafts.

But since we've been swinging and missing a lot. Especially with high value picks.

When is the honeymoon with Tobin over?


These drafts should be giving us the new core of the team. 
It's too early to say on 2017. But outlook from 2013-2016 is not great. 

(10-23-2017, 03:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Our drafts have yielded incredibly poor results of late.
We've blamed coordinators.
We've blamed coaches.
We've blamed players.

But Tobin never seems to get blame.
He got a TON of credit after the 11/12 drafts.

But since we've been swinging and missing a lot. Especially with high value picks.

When is the honeymoon with Tobin over?


These drafts should be giving us the new core of the team. 
It's too early to say on 2017. But outlook from 2013-2016 is not great. 

I think a lot of us have soured on Tobin, but he's kinda insulated by narratives like "Paul Alexander handpicked Ogbuehi and Bodine".

Some guys ( Lawson, Willis, Vigil, Jackson III) have flashed this year too. But a year and a half of sucking will sorta make that seem insignificant too.

(10-23-2017, 03:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Our drafts have yielded incredibly poor results of late.
We've blamed coordinators.
We've blamed coaches.
We've blamed players.

But Tobin never seems to get blame.
He got a TON of credit after the 11/12 drafts.

But since we've been swinging and missing a lot. Especially with high value picks.

When is the honeymoon with Tobin over?


These drafts should be giving us the new core of the team. 
It's too early to say on 2017. But outlook from 2013-2016 is not great. 

What is Tobin's role in the draft and how much input does he have? Does he put together the scouting reports on all the draftees? Is he the one mainly responsible for having "our board" set up in a certain order? Does he make recommendations on who to pick?

I know Lewis is the one who ultimately makes the pick, so I'd need more info on Tobin's role before crucifying him over any failed draft picks.

I just don't see how talent is the issue with this team, outside of offensive line.

I feel like we drafted good players in the drafts but the talent distribution is frustrating to me. We're loaded at Corner but yet we don't have a starting caliber offensive tackle, we're loaded at RB but yet we have no interior lineman.

(10-23-2017, 03:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What is Tobin's role in the draft and how much input does he have? Does he put together the scouting reports on all the draftees? Is he the one mainly responsible for having "our board" set up in a certain order? Does he make recommendations on who to pick?

I know Lewis is the one who ultimately makes the pick, so I'd need more info on Tobin's role before crucifying him over any failed draft picks.

Quote:"I have some role. So do our coaches," Brown explained, via Geoff Hobson of the team's official website. "Duke has become the focal point for everyone. He keeps it on track. I would say today the responsibility is largely his. He puts it all together."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000637749/article/duke-tobins-star-rising-in-bengals-front-office

It's a valid question. From this article and others, I've taken it that Tobin points the draft team in the right direction for players, and then the picks are made by committee. Lewis, maybe the coordinators, the Browns and Tobin. 

Given that it's not all him, I don't fault Tobin for all of it. Some blame, surely, as much as the rest of the committee that picked a tackle with significant injury concerns to rebuild the line around, or to burn pick after pick on corners that watched from the sideline, etc. But that same committee has done pretty good in building a top 10 defense through the draft, finding a decent QB, etc.

Talent wise our drafts are usually praised. If the player never improves after being drafted, is that on Tobin or the coaches?

(10-23-2017, 03:50 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I just don't see how talent is the issue with this team, outside of offensive line.

I don't either.....and on that line, we've heard reports of our o line coach "pounding on the table" for his picks that have failed in epic fashion, which leads to this:

(10-23-2017, 04:04 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Talent wise our drafts are usually praised. If the player never improves after being drafted, is that on Tobin or the coaches?

I've said this for years, going back to the old board.  There is no way anyone can convince me that we continually draft, sign, and trade for a continuous line of choke artists.  Some of our players have played on HUGE stages on a national level in college.  They come here only to wilt in crunch time, looking unprepared and overmatched.  I lay most of it on coaching.

(10-23-2017, 03:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What is Tobin's role in the draft and how much input does he have? Does he put together the scouting reports on all the draftees? Is he the one mainly responsible for having "our board" set up in a certain order? Does he make recommendations on who to pick?

I know Lewis is the one who ultimately makes the pick, so I'd need more info on Tobin's role before crucifying him over any failed draft picks.

This.

With the theories that Paul Alexander has big say in the oLineman we draft, you gotta think it's a complete collaborative effort amongst our staff of stooges.

(10-23-2017, 03:50 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I just don't see how talent is the issue with this team, outside of offensive line.

Having 4 bad offensive lineman is enough of an issue.

No WR2. No WR's with speed.

Bad DT's next to Atkins.

Vigil is bad.

Kirkpatrick is bad.

Having a bad offensive line alone is enough to sink a team.

But the real indictment of Tobin is how bad most of our drafts have been lately. We're just not drafting Pro Bowl caliber players.

Two glaring issues with the draft the past few years:
1) The OL selections have been horrid. The three main picks (Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine) started out playing poorly and continue to play at that level after 3/4 years.
2) Continuous selection of first-round CBs when there were already established starters at the position. Either the veterans shouldn't have been re-signed or probably a better option would have been to take a different position. One that was considered more of an immediate need to help try to win now.

A lot of the picks seemed like good selections at the time, but their usage/effectiveness after a few years proved they weren't actually as good as we thought. That part though probably falls more on the coaching rather than Tobin, but Tobin should know what the coaches do well and what they don't and therefore adjust draft strategy based on that.

(10-23-2017, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Two glaring issues with the draft the past few years:
1) The OL selections have been horrid. The three main picks (Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine) started out playing poorly and continue to play at that level after 3/4 years.
2) Continuous selection of first-round CBs when there were already established starters at the position. Either the veterans shouldn't have been re-signed or probably a better option would have been to take a different position. One that was considered more of an immediate need to help try to win now.

A lot of the picks seemed like good selections at the time, but their usage/effectiveness after a few years proved they weren't actually as good as we thought. That part though probably falls more on the coaching rather than Tobin, but Tobin should know what the coaches do well and what they don't and therefore adjust draft strategy based on that.

Good points, I'd also add that I feel we've had some very good coordinators masking some deficiencies of the underling coaches up until 2016.  We've lost the only good position coaches we had too.  Couple that with what PISTONS has said about losing good FAs and not replacing them.....you have a recipe for disaster.  Now, is that poor evaluation on Tobin, or just the FO handcuffing the staff by not "valuing" positions and holding too firm on negotiations?

(10-23-2017, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Two glaring issues with the draft the past few years:
1) The OL selections have been horrid. The three main picks (Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine) started out playing poorly and continue to play at that level after 3/4 years.
2) Continuous selection of first-round CBs when there were already established starters at the position. Either the veterans shouldn't have been re-signed or probably a better option would have been to take a different position. One that was considered more of an immediate need to help try to win now.

A lot of the picks seemed like good selections at the time, but their usage/effectiveness after a few years proved they weren't actually as good as we thought. That part though probably falls more on the coaching rather than Tobin, but Tobin should know what the coaches do well and what they don't and therefore adjust draft strategy based on that.

What if those players that are touted as good selections, weren't actually good?

What if we draft a player who is probably better suited in a 3-4 (Hardison, Hunt)? 
Isn't that on the guy who is supposed to "coordinate" the draft?  

(10-23-2017, 04:38 PM)Wyche Wrote:  the FO handcuffing the staff by not "valuing" positions and holding too firm on negotiations?

This is the crux of all the problems tbh. 
We are just messing around blaming anyone but Mike at this point. 

We have a horrendously small scouting department.
We ask way too much of coaches in terms of scouting.

All because Mike is cheap. 

(10-23-2017, 04:42 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: What if those players that are touted as good selections, weren't actually good?

What if we draft a player who is probably better suited in a 3-4 (Hardison, Hunt)? 
Isn't that on the guy who is supposed to "coordinate" the draft?  

Depends on who the selections fall under I guess. From what we've heard, Paul Alexander is given a lot of power to hand-pick the OL selections. I wonder who was the driver behind some of the bad defensive selections.

I do agree with you though that Hunt was a better fit as a 3-4 DE and Hardison was a 3-4 DE in college. However, I did think he would fit as a 4-3 UT, but I guess I was wrong.

(10-23-2017, 04:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is the crux of all the problems tbh. 
We are just messing around blaming anyone but Mike at this point. 

We have a horrendously small scouting department.
We ask way too much of coaches in terms of scouting.

All because Mike is cheap. 

I agree.  I'd like to see this entire team and staff under different ownership before I pass too much judgment.  You have a situation scouting college players that is absolutely a hindrance, and I also often wonder how much scouting of the opponents they can do ahead.  Like, if you had a bigger scout count, they could be scouting teams a couple weeks out on the schedule while the staff works on THIS week.  The way things are, you don't really have time for, correcting mistakes from the prior week, working on this week, and looking forward down the schedule.

You know, I've always blamed the coaching, but this discussion has raised a few possibilities to me as to why the coaching may "appear" substandard compared to our opponents.  Good points Royle.  I mean, it could absolutely boil down to coaching, but this could very well be a factor that contributes to it as well.

(10-23-2017, 04:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: Good points, I'd also add that I feel we've had some very good coordinators masking some deficiencies of the underling coaches up until 2016.  We've lost the only good position coaches we had too.  Couple that with what PISTONS has said about losing good FAs and not replacing them.....you have a recipe for disaster.  Now, is that poor evaluation on Tobin, or just the FO handcuffing the staff by not "valuing" positions and holding too firm on negotiations?

Yeah...that's the simple reason for our decline.

We've lost some quality players in free agency and the draft picks haven't replaced most of them.

Like Marvin Jones. He had speed and could put up 800-1000 yards receiving. Was he a great WR? No.

Lafell seems to replace his numbers...but Lafell isn't a deep threat. Defenses don't have to worry about Lafell getting behind them thus opening up space for Green. And Ross hasn't seen the field much.

It's death by 1000 paper cuts. Losing good coaches is a big thing too.

We would have been better off paying Zeitler than Kirkpatrick.

(10-23-2017, 04:42 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: What if those players that are touted as good selections, weren't actually good?

What if we draft a player who is probably better suited in a 3-4 (Hardison, Hunt)? 
Isn't that on the guy who is supposed to "coordinate" the draft?  

You bring up a great point. It's also why some of the free agents we sign don't fit. Harrison was not suited to play here for instance, but he was willing to play for less than Dansby.

Scouting plays a major factor. Honestly, there's no way the Bengals have scouts at all of these guys games in college. I think the coaches watch tape and go to the player workouts.

(10-23-2017, 04:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is the crux of all the problems tbh. 
We are just messing around blaming anyone but Mike at this point. 

We have a horrendously small scouting department.
We ask way too much of coaches in terms of scouting.

All because Mike is cheap. 

I feel like the NFL salary cap rises by $10 million each year. Yet the value the Bengals will pay for a position is set at levels from 7-10 years ago. Like offering Zeitler $5.5 million a year.

Yeah Boling plays for that much...but Boling signed several years ago and struggled early in his career.

(10-23-2017, 04:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Depends on who the selections fall under I guess. From what we've heard, Paul Alexander is given a lot of power to hand-pick the OL selections. I wonder who was the driver behind some of the bad defensive selections.

I do agree with you though that Hunt was a better fit as a 3-4 DE and Hardison was a 3-4 DE in college. However, I did think he would fit as a 4-3 UT, but I guess I was wrong.

We seem to have a fascination with drafting 3-4 defenders and putting them in our 4-3 looks. Moch and Clarke are two more names that were basically square pegs that we tried to fit into round holes. Moch was constantly mentioned as an OLB in a 3-4. Clarke was mocked to be a 3-4 DE prior to his draft.