(11-14-2017, 02:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. This team has about 10 Starters grading out at Poor.

The coaching is all Poor and they just don't seem to care.

It's a bad situation. It's nearly impossible to evaluate anyone.

IF you put Dalton on the Steelers, I think he's a Top 5-7 QB

And if you put Ben on the Bengals I guarantee we’re not wallowing in the misery of 0 playoff wins.

(11-14-2017, 08:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And if you put Ben on the Bengals I guarantee we’re not wallowing in the misery of 0 playoff wins.

We're 0-3 in the playoffs with non-Andy QBs. No QB with a rating over 68.3. Our elite defense has crumbled in 6 of 7 games. We can't run. Can't block. Can't generate sacks or turnovers on defense. Marv gets uber conservative. Can't stop the run or pass.

For the life of me, I can't understand why some can't see that it's not a problem isolated to Dalton. I really wish I could say Dalton was the problem, but Marv had a bad reputation in big games before Andy was even at TCU.

(11-14-2017, 10:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We're 0-3 in the playoffs with non-Andy QBs. No QB with a rating over 68.3. Our elite defense has crumbled in 6 of 7 games. We can't run. Can't block. Can't generate sacks or turnovers on defense. Marv gets uber conservative. Can't stop the run or pass.

For the life of me, I can't understand why some can't see that it's not a problem isolated to Dalton. I really wish I could say Dalton was the problem, but Marv had a bad reputation in big games before Andy was even at TCU.

When I see people say we would be more successful or have playoff wins 'if we had Ben, Brady, Wilson' or whoever...I can't help but to think - yeah, but what if Dalton was in Pitt, NE or Seattle? Maybe he would benefit greatly from being in those places and have playoff wins of his own.

(11-14-2017, 10:48 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When I see people say we would be more successful or have playoff wins 'if we had Ben, Brady, Wilson' or whoever...I can't help but to think - yeah, but what if Dalton was in Pitt, NE or Seattle? Maybe he would benefit greatly from being in those places and have playoff wins of his own.

I’m sure Dalton would have multiple SB rings if he played somewhere else. Whatever you guys say. Lol

(11-14-2017, 10:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m sure Dalton would have multiple SB rings if he played somewhere else. Whatever you guys say. Lol

So, if you put Brady on the Bengals (with Marvin) for the last 7 years and Andy on the Pats (with Billy B)...who do you think has more playoff wins during that time and why?

(11-14-2017, 11:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, if you put Brady on the Bengals (with Marvin) for the last 7 years and Andy on the Pats (with Billy B)...who do you think has more playoff wins during that time and why?

Brady. Because he’s one of the GOAT, and Andy is average.

(11-14-2017, 11:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Brady. Because he’s one of the GOAT, and Andy is average.

So, how much does the organization, the ownership, the head coach, the schemes, the game plans, the culture and all of that factor in?

This is just my opinion - and all of this we're talking about is pure speculation - but I see the combo of Belichick and Dalton being more successful than Lewis and Brady.

(11-14-2017, 11:15 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, how much does the organization, the ownership, the head coach, the schemes, the game plans, the culture and all of that factor in?

This is just my opinion - and all of this we're talking about is pure speculation - but I see the combo of Belichick and Dalton being more successful than Lewis and Brady.

All that other stuff factors in, no doubt, especially HC, but I think a good enough QB can makeup for a lot of other shortcomings. Brady could have won a lot of games with those Zimmer D’s and weapons like AJ Green and Marvin Jones.

(11-14-2017, 11:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: All that other stuff factors in, no doubt, especially HC, but I think a good enough QB can makeup for a lot of other shortcomings. Brady could have won a lot of games with those Zimmer D’s and weapons like AJ Green and Marvin Jones.

Respect your opinion brother, we just see it a bit differently. 

I honestly don't think Brady is the same QB here in Cincy under Marvin. I think he'd still be one of the current best, but not necessarily all-time great level that he is under Billy B. I also think Belichick (along with McDaniels) would have made Andy a perennial top 5 QB.

(11-14-2017, 10:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2 out of those 3 non-Dalton L’s were backup QBs. Kind of skews the narrative that no QB can win in the playoffs under Marvin. Palmer only got one real shot against the Jets.  For the life of me i can’t understand why some can’t see Dalton has been PART of the problem in the playoffs. Are you honestly going to tell me you don’t think Ben would have had at least some postseason success here?

Yeah but they weren't your typical backups, were they? Kitna was mostly a starter through his career, and quite a serviceable one at that. McCarron just had a team offer a 2nd and 3rd for his services.

(11-14-2017, 11:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: All that other stuff factors in, no doubt, especially HC, but I think a good enough QB can makeup for a lot of other shortcomings. Brady could have won a lot of games with those Zimmer D’s and weapons like AJ Green and Marvin Jones.

What did Zimmer's mighty defense do in the playoffs? Green? Chad? Gio? Eifert? Atkins? Dunlap? What did they all do?

Marvin is something like 8-30 in prime-time, 7-24 vs the Steelers and 0-7 in the playoffs, with most of that coming before Dalton. Palmer "choked" in those games, too.

Somehow got better when he left.

After all these 'debates'...I'm most upset that my iPhone actually changed 'your' to 'you're'...

I apologize friends.

(11-14-2017, 08:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And if you put Ben on the Bengals I guarantee we’re not wallowing in the misery of 0 playoff wins.

Rarely has Ben been the best, or even the 'okay' part of the team.

Guy has ALWAYS played behind a stacked defense, solid offensive line and a group of pass catchers/running backs.

He also did post the WORST SB performance ever.

He's also not doing that well this year, all things considered.

(11-14-2017, 11:15 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, how much does the organization, the ownership, the head coach, the schemes, the game plans, the culture and all of that factor in?

This is just my opinion - and all of this we're talking about is pure speculation - but I see the combo of Belichick and Dalton being more successful than Lewis and Brady.

This. Same team that made Garropollo (I don't care about spelling Jimmy's name right), Brissett and Matt Cassel 'famous'.

What did Cassel do?

Jimmy/Brissett I will discount for now.

(11-15-2017, 03:22 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: This. Same team that made Garropollo (I don't care about spelling Jimmy's name right), Brissett and Matt Cassel 'famous'.

What did Cassel do?

Jimmy/Brissett I will discount for now.

Cassel won some games for the Pats but they didn’t even make the playoffs so let’s not act like it’s all system in NE.

(11-14-2017, 11:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Respect your opinion brother, we just see it a bit differently. 

I honestly don't think Brady is the same QB here in Cincy under Marvin. I think he'd still be one of the current best, but not necessarily all-time great level that he is under Billy B. I also think Belichick (along with McDaniels) would have made Andy a perennial top 5 QB.

Brady would be Bungalized just like Palmer, Dalton, everyone else on the team.....hell man, AJ Green of all people has been ejected from a game this season....but yeah, it's a great culture and winning philosophy here.  I'm sure we'd have hoisted numerous Lombardis with Brady, using AJ Green as a decoy in an entire half of a playoff game.  

(11-15-2017, 06:12 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Cassel won some games for the Pats but they didn’t even make the playoffs so let’s not act like it’s all system in NE.

The one year Brady had a mediocre season after his early years?  That was the one year Dante Scarnecchia retired.  We have Piano Man......tell me more about how coaching, schemes, and system don't play a big role in a team's success.  


EDIT:  Cassel went 10-5 during the 2008 season, Miami had a rare year at 11-5 and won the division.  The very next season Sir Tom went 10-6 and that won the division for the Patsies.

Cassel threw for 3693 yds, 63.4%, 21 TD, 11 INT.....all numbers he never even sniffed again....besides 10-6 W/L two years later at KC.

(11-14-2017, 11:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah but they weren't your typical backups, were they? Kitna was mostly a starter through his career, and quite a serviceable one at that. McCarron just had a team offer a 2nd and 3rd for his services.


What did Zimmer's mighty defense do in the playoffs? Green? Chad? Gio? Eifert? Atkins? Dunlap? What did they all do?

Marvin is something like 8-30 in prime-time, 7-24 vs the Steelers and 0-7 in the playoffs, with most of that coming before Dalton. Palmer "choked" in those games, too.

Somehow got better when he left.

.....and won a playoff game.

Not saying Brady would have 5 rings if he played here (I guarantee Dalton wouldn’t if he was up there) but he would have made a couple runs, IMO. Hell, the Pats played like utter dog shit in the 1st half of the SB last year and 40 year old Brady put the team on his back and made a comeback for the ages.

(11-15-2017, 11:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not saying Brady would have 5 rings if he played here (I guarantee Dalton wouldn’t if he was up there) but he would have made a couple runs, IMO. Hell, the Pats played like utter dog shit in the 1st half of the SB last year and 40 year old Brady put the team on his back and made a comeback for the ages.

I don't think he has ANY rings in Cincy.....unless you put him in a DeLorean and send him back to the 80s

No, Dalton probably doesn't have five, either.....maybe none.  However, when the Pats had guys like Dillon, Moss, McGinnest, Bruschi, Revis, etc, etc, he'd probably have at least played in a Bowl or two.

This past Super Bowl is an interesting look into coaching....the Falcons staff shit the bed on that one, and Belichick and Brady took advantage.  Of course, all those years of experience don't hurt Tom any either.  You also gotta factor in that Vinatieri (sp?) saved many a game for the Pats as well over the years.

I dunno man, I've watched Son of Paul's clown show for one too many years to have any visions of grandeur regardless of who's under center.  Hell, even Boomer couldn't get us into the playoffs at one point, and that guy was still putting up single game records in those days.

(11-15-2017, 11:27 AM)Wyche Wrote: I don't think he has ANY rings in Cincy.....unless you put him in a DeLorean and send him back to the 80s

No, Dalton probably doesn't have five, either.....maybe none.  However, when the Pats had guys like Dillon, Moss, McGinnest, Bruschi, Revis, etc, etc, he'd probably have at least played in a Bowl or two.

This past Super Bowl is an interesting look into coaching....the Falcons staff shit the bed on that one, and Belichick and Brady took advantage.  Of course, all those years of experience don't hurt Tom any either.  You also gotta factor in that Vinatieri (sp?) saved many a game for the Pats as well over the years.

I dunno man, I've watched Son of Paul's clown show for one too many years to have any visions of grandeur regardless of who's under center.  Hell, even Boomer couldn't get us into the playoffs at one point, and that guy was still putting up single game records in those days.

Dalton may not have any rings if he were the QB in New England (he certainly would have a few playoff wins), but I guarantee you that Brady would certainly have none if he were here. At best, he'd overcome some of Merv's coaching deficiencies and get us a playoff win or 2, but unless Brady can somehow make the defense and the rest of the team play as well in the playoffs as they had during the regular season, then we're NOT winning the Super Bowl.

It should be clear to anyone with an inkling of football knowledge to see that the problems in the playoffs are a culmination of issues and not relegated to a single player. So while Brady may overcome SOME of those, there's no way he (or any QB in NFL history) could overcome all those or enough to win multiple playoff games in a single postseason and a Super Bowl.