(11-18-2017, 01:47 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries 

Go away, or I will taunt you a 2nd time-ah

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/11/17/doc-cincinnati-bengals-coach-marvin-lewis-qb-andy-dalton-aj-mccarron-experiment/873741001/

“A comfortable pair of shoes”

Pretty darn accurate as describing AD.

(11-19-2017, 12:15 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/11/17/doc-cincinnati-bengals-coach-marvin-lewis-qb-andy-dalton-aj-mccarron-experiment/873741001/

“A comfortable pair of shoes”

Pretty darn accurate as describing AD.

Doc is showing his ignorance when he describes Mac as having "a strong arm".

He also brings up Andy's 3-10 record vs Steelers and 0-4 record in the playoffs as if it were damning evidence, when Marv is 5-13 vs the Steelers with others QBs (mostly Palmer), and 0-3 in the playoffs without Andy. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

"Dalton needs a very good supporting cast to be very good" - what QB doesn't?

(11-19-2017, 01:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Doc is showing his ignorance when he describes Mac as having "a strong arm".

He also brings up Andy's 3-10 record vs Steelers and 0-4 record in the playoffs as if it were damning evidence, when Marv is 4-12 vs the Steelers with others QBs (mostly Palmer), and 0-3 in the playoffs without Andy. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

"Dalton needs a very good supporting cast to be very good" - what QB doesn't?

Who can’t see the forest for the trees? That is a double edge sword my friend.

(11-19-2017, 01:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Doc is showing his ignorance when he describes Mac as having "a strong arm".

He also brings up Andy's 3-10 record vs Steelers and 0-4 record in the playoffs as if it were damning evidence, when Marv is 5-13 vs the Steelers with others QBs (mostly Palmer), and 0-3 in the playoffs without Andy. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

"Dalton needs a very good supporting cast to be very good" - what QB doesn't?

BTW Palmer is 5-9 against the Steelers lifetime.
4-8 with our team. You are good at the spin.

(11-19-2017, 01:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Doc is showing his ignorance when he describes Mac as having "a strong arm".

He also brings up Andy's 3-10 record vs Steelers and 0-4 record in the playoffs as if it were damning evidence, when Marv is 4-12 vs the Steelers with others QBs (mostly Palmer), and 0-3 in the playoffs without Andy. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

"Dalton needs a very good supporting cast to be very good" - what QB doesn't?

AJM has a weaker arm than Dalton by a lot. How can anyone say that with a straight face let alone get paid to put that garbage out there. 
This is a problem because people think he knows what he's talking about. So then JimBob Bengal fan thinks it's true and bitches and moans that we got AJ Mac with a cannon for an arm wasting away on the sidelines. 

(11-19-2017, 02:29 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: BTW Palmer is 5-9 against the Steelers lifetime.
4-8 with our team. You are good at the spin.

What spin? He never said anything about Palmer's personal record

(11-19-2017, 02:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: AJM has a weaker arm than Dalton by a lot. How can anyone say that with a straight face let alone get paid to put that garbage out there. 
This is a problem because people think he knows what he's talking about. So then JimBob Bengal fan thinks it's true and bitches and moans that we got AJ Mac with a cannon for an arm wasting away on the sidelines. 


What spin? He never said anything about Palmer's personal record

Lol...then why even mention him? ?

What proof do you have to show Andy has a stronger arm than AJ? I don’t have any evidence either way and don’t really care. They both seem to have adequate arm strength to make good intermidate and short throws between the numbers. They both are less than adequate on deep throws and throws to the sideline.

(11-18-2017, 01:47 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries 

(11-18-2017, 02:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I fart in your general direction

(11-18-2017, 02:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Go away, or I will taunt you a 2nd time-ah

I don' wanna talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food-trough wiper!




BTW, It was clear Manziel was never going to succeed in the NFL while he was still in college.  That's why SOOO many people were excited that Jerry Jones wanted him!

(11-19-2017, 02:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: AJM has a weaker arm than Dalton by a lot. How can anyone say that with a straight face let alone get paid to put that garbage out there. 
This is a problem because people think he knows what he's talking about. So then JimBob Bengal fan thinks it's true and bitches and moans that we got AJ Mac with a cannon for an arm wasting away on the sidelines. 


What spin? He never said anything about Palmer's personal record

(11-19-2017, 02:58 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Lol...then why even mention him? ?

What proof do you have to show Andy has a stronger arm than AJ?  I don’t have any evidence either way and don’t really care. They both seem to have adequate arm strength to make good intermidate and short throws between the numbers. They both are less than adequate on deep throws and throws to the sideline.

Why mention him? Pretty simple. Most Dalton bashers have a (much) higher opinion of Palmer. Palmer and his abysmal 4-8 record vs the Steelers is a good chunk of Marv's overall 5-13 record vs the Steelers with other QB's. Btw...we're not going to pretend 4-8 is a respectable mark...right?

Palmer: 4-8 vs Steelers with a 76.7 passer rating 
Dalton: 3-10 vs Steelers with a 75.6 passer rating (this is counting his broken thumb "start")
Other QBs (Kitna, Fitzpatrick, McCarron): 1-5 vs Steelers with a 76.8 passer rating
Marvin Lewis: 8-23 vs Steelers (including playoffs)

Hmm...

(11-19-2017, 03:52 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: 4-8 is not a good record...to your point it is abysmal.
3-10 is worse!!!!

Most football fans (as opposed to Dalton fans) have a much higher option of Palmer than Dalton.

This is why looking deeper into stats is important...

In his 12 games against the Steelers as a Bengal, Palmer had 5 games with a rating over 80. In 13 games, Dalton has also had 5.

Palmer had a sub-60 passer rating 4 times, while Andy has only had 2 so far, and their passer rating is almost identical vs the Steelers as a Bengal.

Palmer led teams scored 20 or more 4 times, while Andy's teams have done it 5 times.

Carson threw for 250 or more yards just once against them, while Andy has done it 4 times.

Bottom line, two different QB's, with pretty much the same end results against the Steelers under Marvin...and any narrative that Dalton's play has somehow been worse doesn't really bare out.

(11-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:


Why mention him? Pretty simple. Most Dalton bashers have a (much) higher opinion of Palmer. Palmer and his abysmal 4-8 record vs the Steelers is a good chunk of Marv's overall 5-13 record vs the Steelers with other QB's. Btw...we're not going to pretend 4-8 is a respectable mark...right?

Palmer: 4-8 vs Steelers with a 76.7 passer rating 
Dalton: 3-10 vs Steelers with a 75.6 passer rating (this is counting his broken thumb "start")
Other QBs (Kitna, Fitzpatrick, McCarron): 1-5 vs Steelers with a 76.8 passer rating
Marvin Lewis: 8-23 vs Steelers (including playoffs)

Hmm...

Good point. Strapped with the same coach and management one QB has an abysmal record...the other is worse than abysmal!

I would say most football fans...as opposed to Dalton bashers...have a much higher opinion of Palmer. I mean come on man, when a guy in his prime is considered to be the low water mark on if you sholuld move on to a new QB...that is not a ringing endorsement of how he is viewed.

(11-19-2017, 03:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: This is why looking deeper into stats is important...

In his 12 games against the Steelers as a Bengal, Palmer had 5 games with a rating over 80. In 13 games, Dalton has also had 5.

Palmer had a sub-60 passer rating 4 times, while Andy has only had 2 so far, and their passer rating is almost identical vs the Steelers as a Bengal.

Palmer led teams scored 20 or more 4 times, while Andy's teams have done it 5 times.

Carson threw for 250 or more yards just once against them, while Andy has done it 4 times.

Bottom line, two different QB's, with pretty much the same end results against the Steelers under Marvin...and any narrative that Dalton's play has somehow been worse doesn't really bare out.

That is some good stuff. Since it is conventional wisdom that Defense wins championships (or at least plays a part in the outcome of the game) would you be so kind as to post where the Bengals defense was rated during those Palmer games versus the Dalton games?
Was the defense better or worse in one situation vs the other? Just courteous to know.

(11-19-2017, 04:08 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Good point. Strapped with the same coach and management one QB has an abysmal record...the other is worse than abysmal!

I would say most football fans...as opposed to Dalton bashers...have a much higher opinion of Palmer. I mean come on man, when a guy in his prime is considered to be the low water mark on if you sholuld move on to a new QB...that is not a ringing endorsement of how he is viewed.

I didn't intend for that to become a Palmer vs Dalton discussion. It was only meant to show that the QB is not the problem. Not with the Steelers, not with prime-time and not with playoff games.

It is what it is.

That said...I think Palmer vs Andy is a toss up. They're both good. Both had their big seasons, both had down years. Overall they had a lot of success. Palmer has the bigger arm and I think that's all some are capable of looking at. That arm enabled Palmer to make some throws Andy can't, but the arm also got Palmer into trouble at times (forcing it). He was more turnover prone than Andy. Softer than Andy. Both were/are generally accurate but have sporadic moments. Think of those INT's Palmer threw when we faced them in AZ. Arians was looking at Palmer like "WTF". Palmer was just as good for that as Dalton is.

But the good moments by FAR outweigh the bad. That goes for both. Again, some just can't get past draft status and "big arm".

(11-19-2017, 04:14 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: That is some good stuff.  Since it is conventional wisdom that Defense wins championships (or at least plays a part in the outcome of the game) would you be so kind as to post where the Bengals defense was rated during those Palmer games versus the Dalton games?
Was the defense better or worse in one situation vs the other? Just courteous to know.

Palmer had a 76.7 passer rating vs the Steelers
Dalton has a 75.6 passer rating vs the Steelers
Others have a 76.8 passer rating vs the Steelers

How about we look at that? Palmer played just as big a role in his losses as any of these QB's.

20-37-164-1-2 (52.1 rating) in a 17-28 loss
13-25-165-2-1 (82.9) 14-19 loss
21-36-227-0-2 (53.8) 13-27 loss
22-38-227-3-0 (101.5) 38-31 win
18-26-193-4-2 (98.2) 28-20 win
20-38-251-2-0 (91.0) 17-23 loss
23-31-205-1-0 (102.2) 13-24 loss
17-44-183-0-0 (51.6) 10-24 loss
20-37-183-1-0 (76.7) 23-20 win
18-30-178-0-0 (76.8) 18-12 win
22-36-248-2-1 (88.7) 21-27 loss
20-32-178-1-3 (48.7) 7-23 loss

Overall, Palmer's offense averaged 18.3 PPG and the defense allowed 23.2 PPG.

The Bengals have averaged 16.8 PPG against the Steelers in Dalton's starts, with the defense allowing 24.8. So the defense was actually a little better for Palmer in these games.

(11-19-2017, 04:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I didn't intend for that to become a Palmer vs Dalton discussion. It was only meant to show that the QB is not the problem. Not with the Steelers, not with prime-time and not with playoff games.

It is what it is.

That said...I think Palmer vs Andy is a toss up. They're both good. Both had their big seasons, both had down years. Overall they had a lot of success. Palmer has the bigger arm and I think that's all some are capable of looking at. That arm enabled Palmer to make some throws Andy can't, but the arm also got Palmer into trouble at times (forcing it). He was more turnover prone than Andy. Softer than Andy. Both were/are generally accurate but have sporadic moments. Think of those INT's Palmer threw when we faced them in AZ. Arians was looking at Palmer like "WTF". Palmer was just as good for that as Dalton is.

But the good moments by FAR outweigh the bad. That goes for both. Again, some just can't get past draft status and "big arm".

Nice response other than Palmer is softer than AD!!!

That is truly laughable. How do you make that type of BS statement? Based on what? CP telling this turd of a owner to kiss his ass? His ability to return from serious injuries? His ability to shoulder the blame for diva receivers and poor coaching, time and time again? The statements of his strong leadership by the likes of Larry Fitz and other HOF’ers? Who has ever said AD is “strong” or a leader. Of all the Bengals quarterbacks you mentioned earlier in the post AD gets rattled the quickest and Melts under the pressure quicker than any of them.

AD has had the advantage of the strongest roster top the bottom of ANY Bengals quarterback of all time. He has done nothing with it when it is nut cutting time.

BTW this is the all things AD thread...just saying

(11-19-2017, 04:36 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Nice response other than Palmer is softer than AD!!!

That is truly laughable. How do you make that type of BS statement? Based on what? CP telling this  turd of a owner to kiss his ass? His ability to return from serious injuries? His ability to shoulder the blame for diva receivers and poor coaching, time and time again? The statements of his strong leadership by the likes  of Larry Fitz and other HOF’ers? Who has ever said AD is “strong” or a leader. Of all the Bengals quarterbacks you mentioned earlier in the post AD gets rattled the quickest and Melts under the pressure quicker than any of them.

AD has had the advantage of the strongest roster top the bottom of ANY Bengals quarterback of all time. He has done nothing with it when it is nut cutting time.

BTW this is the all things AD thread...just saying

You're the one who steered this towards a Palmer discussion.

Palmer was a soft Cali boy. Always whining about his receivers to deflect blame from himself. Remember how he used to throw his arms up after an INT, looking at Chad? He's done the same crap in both Oakland and AZ. It's always someone else's fault. Sorry if I don't view his laundry list of injuries as proof of his "toughness". Dalton has taken far more of a beating and continually gets back up. If you don't think he's fighting his way through any injuries, you're fooling yourself.

I loved Palmer. Still hold him in high regard, but the way he's held on a pedestal by the same folks who have their pitchforks out for Andy is ridiculous. Talk about two different standards.

(11-19-2017, 02:29 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: BTW Palmer is 5-9 against the Steelers lifetime.
4-8 with our team. You are good at the spin.

Where is the spin? He said marvio was bad with other QBs not named dalton, as well. 

This thread has turned into a great example of how selective bias works.

(11-19-2017, 04:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Palmer had a 76.7 passer rating vs the Steelers
Dalton has a 75.6 passer rating vs the Steelers
Others have a 76.8 passer rating vs the Steelers

How about we look at that? Palmer played just as big a role in his losses as any of these QB's.

20-37-164-1-2 (52.1 rating) in a 17-28 loss
13-25-165-2-1 (82.9) 14-19 loss
21-36-227-0-2 (53.8) 13-27 loss
22-38-227-3-0 (101.5) 38-31 win
18-26-193-4-2 (98.2) 28-20 win
20-38-251-2-0 (91.0) 17-23 loss
23-31-205-1-0 (102.2)  13-24 loss
17-44-183-0-0 (51.6) 10-24 loss
20-37-183-1-0 (76.7)  23-20 win
18-30-178-0-0 (76.8) 18-12 win
22-36-248-2-1 (88.7) 21-27 loss
20-32-178-1-3 (48.7) 7-23 loss

Overall, Palmer's offense averaged 18.3 PPG and the defense allowed 23.2 PPG.

The Bengals have averaged 16.8 PPG against the Steelers in Dalton's starts, with the defense allowing 24.8. So the defense was actually a little better for Palmer in these games.

Yeah, bottom line - you have 2 QB's covering 14 years, with their teams having different strengths and weaknesses duirng that time...yet the end results are pretty much the same. That should make it painfully obvious that the problem has been much bigger than the QB, whoever it may be.

(11-19-2017, 04:08 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Good point. Strapped with the same coach and management one QB has an abysmal record...the other is worse than abysmal!

I would say most football fans...as opposed to Dalton bashers...have a much higher opinion of Palmer. I mean come on man, when a guy in his prime is considered to be the low water mark on if you sholuld move on to a new QB...that is not a ringing endorsement of how he is viewed.

To be fair, "prototypical NFL QB" holds a lot more weight, and gives you many more opportunities than "2nd round draft pick".