(08-20-2015, 04:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No but that happens a lot to AJ in the playoffs...eventually he has to be the one to make the play. 
He and Andy just can't seem to connect for the big one and it's a lot of back and forth. 

AJ can't haul in a pass then Dalton misses him the next time. But people only remember the latter. It's happened just about every game. 

Speaking of every game (assuming you meant playoff games) that may have been one I was thinking of, was there a big, controversial overthrow in one of the Houston games? For some reason, I feel like the pass I was talking about earlier was in a playoff game and it caused a big argument on the old boards.

I could be completely wrong and it may have been a random regular season game, but I'm 75% sure it was a controversial playoff play.

(08-20-2015, 04:18 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That may have been one I was thinking of, was there a big, controversial overthrow in one of the Houston games? For some reason, I feel like the pass I was talking about earlier was in a playoff game and it caused a big argument on the old boards.

I could be completely wrong and it may have been a random regular season game, but I'm 75% sure it was a controversial playoff play.

There was a bad overthrow.
It was either right before or after a DB knocked a TD out of AJ's hands. (Might have been Joseph)

And like I said, this is how it goes. Only one of them is considered top 5 at his position tho...

This is why the problem is larger than Dalton. No one shows up in these games.

(08-20-2015, 04:20 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There was a bad overthrow.
It was either right before or after a DB knocked a TD out of AJ's hands. (Might have been Joseph)

And like I said, this is how it goes. Only one of them is considered top 5 at his position tho...

This is why the problem is larger than Dalton. No one shows up in these games.

The bad overthrow was to Marvin Jones right after the drop from Green.

(08-20-2015, 04:20 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There was a bad overthrow.
It was either right before or after a DB knocked a TD out of AJ's hands. (Might have been Joseph)

And like I said, this is how it goes. Only one of them is considered top 5 at his position tho...

This is why the problem is larger than Dalton. No one shows up in these games.

I believe it was Joseph because I definitely remember something in that game stirring up the "OMG WE KEPT THE WRONG CB!!!" crowd.

(08-20-2015, 11:59 AM)djs7685 Wrote: So it's okay to throw awful passes to the other team continuously and fumble untouched just because Gio fumbled in the first half? Sure thing, dude! Well, I thought we WERE getting somewhere. I guess not. The "IF" train is in full force yet again.

I can bring up a ton of "IF" scenarios too, but I'm not because I understand more about how a logical discussion works than that. I don't need hypothetical scenarios and excuses to make my points. That's the difference between people who are realistic about Andy versus those who aren't. The wacked out Andy-nuthuggers have to constantly be spinning and making excuses while I can just sit here and show things that DID happen to support my stance. I don't need to make up hypotheticals and blame other people. Andy played poorly against San Diego, plain and simple. It was nobody else's fault that he looked like shit. Stop being this obsessed.

You are holding Andy Dalton to some sort of standard that all of us on this message board know he shouldn't be held to. You are putting him on a pedestal.

Dalton's limitations as a gunslinger should not be brought up as a reason for lost playoff games, as we know from regular season games that he is prone to play like what he is: a mediocre quarterback.

Expecting Dalton to suddenly elevate his game in the playoffs is a pipe dream. He will always play like Andy Dalton because he is Andy Dalton. Dalton's career averages suggest that his average game consists of 230 yards, 1.5 TD's and 1 INT. That is average quarterback play my friend.

This team wins in ways outside of our quarterback's playmakings ability. When the team around Dalton collapses (as has happened in all 4 of the last 4 playoffs games), then he will fail. Expecting him to shoulder the team like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning is unfair to Dalton as a person or a player. He must be assessed for what he is.

(08-20-2015, 04:25 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: You are holding Andy Dalton to some sort of standard that all of us on this message board know he shouldn't be held to. You are putting him on a pedestal.

Dalton's limitations as a gunslinger should not be brought up as a reason for lost playoff games, as we know from regular season games that he is prone to play like what he is: a mediocre quarterback.

Expecting Dalton to suddenly elevate his game in the playoffs is a pipe dream. He will always play like Andy Dalton because he is Andy Dalton. Dalton's career averages suggest that his average game consists of 230 yards, 1.5 TD's and 1 INT. That is average quarterback play my friend.

This team wins in ways outside of our quarterback's playmakings ability. When the team around Dalton collapses (as has happened in all 4 of the last 4 playoffs games), then he will fail. Expecting him to shoulder the team like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning is unfair to Dalton as a person or a player. He must be assessed for what he is.

Even to this "average standard", Andy has played like garbage in the playoffs.

I don't care what anyone tries to say, that's the absolute truth of the matter and about 98% of others will agree with that.

I don't think Andy is the SOLE reason we lose those games, I've never said that, but he's definitely one of the reasons and he's played like shit.

(08-20-2015, 04:24 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I believe it was Joseph because I definitely remember something in that game stirring up the "OMG WE KEPT THE WRONG CB!!!" crowd.

We know what Andy is. 
We know what AJ is.

Which one do you expect to "make a play" in a big game? 
Which one do we keep asking to?

Seems backwards no? 

(08-20-2015, 04:13 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't have a problem saying that A.J. could/should have caught it and that Andy got the ball in the area of where he needed it to be.

I just can't call it a "$20 million throw" and give 100% of the blame to A.J., Andy could have definitely put it in a better place for him. The defender also made a good play on it, can't discredit him for that.

If Manning, Luck, Rodgers makes the exact same throw, who gets more blame, the QB or the receiver?

The 20 million was a bit over the top, but I do expect a WR making $500K to make that catch, I feel no excuse for a man soon to make 14 to 15 million a year to drop that ball. Again, in the interview AJ admitted he had poor awareness and why he did not go hard after the ball. A pro like AJ should have seen the coverage and knew the safety had to be close by.

(08-20-2015, 04:18 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Speaking of every game (assuming you meant playoff games) that may have been one I was thinking of, was there a big, controversial overthrow in one of the Houston games? For some reason, I feel like the pass I was talking about earlier was in a playoff game and it caused a big argument on the old boards.

I could be completely wrong and it may have been a random regular season game, but I'm 75% sure it was a controversial playoff play.

the 2nd playoff bout with the texans i believe.... the deep pass to aj that would have put us ahead i believe... was like a foot in front of AJs hand or something like that.

**Side not i remember some article about dalton being sick the week leading up to that game. which probly didnt help his proformance... Then there was the whole only pass the gresham in the first half and green in the second gruden plan as well...**

(08-20-2015, 05:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the 2nd playoff bout with the texans i believe.... the deep pass to aj  that would have put us ahead i believe...  was like a foot in front of AJs hand or something like that.

**Side not i remember some article about dalton being sick the week leading up to that game. which probly didnt help his proformance... Then there was the whole only pass the gresham in the first half and green in the second gruden plan as well...**

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122359/Green-drops-TD-pass

that one?

(08-20-2015, 06:04 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122359/Green-drops-TD-pass

that one?

"Drop"

But no he means this one, which you probably knew considering yours doesn't even fit his description.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122399/Dalton-overthrows-Green

(08-20-2015, 06:10 PM)MrRager Wrote: "Drop"

But no he means this one, which you probably knew:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122399/Dalton-overthrows-Green

Yep thats the one he was out ahead of green... but the first one dude posted could have been a TD too...



GROWING PAINS when your play makers are so young and inexperienced...

Dalton is the one with white taping over his ankles in the training camp videos. And for the overthrow against the Texans- it was hard to watch, but to be fair Green could have made a fully extended dive lol

I'm not sure any QB could have made it work last season in the playoffs with the skill group we ran out there. No TE, Burkhead at WR and so on. Plus Hill left after halftime. Ironically the Bengals played the Steelers the prior week and each team injured the other one to the extent that they could not win their playoff game.

In any event, that is all in the past. Right now we have things to be encouraged about. Like having Eifert back seemingly 100% - the lack of a reliable outlet target not to mention lack of a player suited to attack the middle of the field was huge last season. Unfortunately no Marvin Jones yet but if he is back that gives us our vertical threat back. I want to see this offense when Hue actually has all the pieces - which he has not yet had in his tenure.

(08-20-2015, 06:04 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122359/Green-drops-TD-pass

that one?

Holy shit, people are calling that a drop? So a good CB isn't allowed to make a good play without the WR getting criticized? That's absurd. There's basically nothing Green could have done differently to make that catch. The defense is on the field to make plays, do we just ignore that when it's convenient???

I'm all for giving A.J. some hell for that Chargers play, but he didn't even do anything slightly incorrect on this one. He went up and actually went after the ball (like people said he should have done against SD) and the defense made a great play on it with absolutely nothing A.J. could do about it.

(08-20-2015, 06:10 PM)MrRager Wrote: "Drop"

But no he means this one, which you probably knew considering yours doesn't even fit his description.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000122399/Dalton-overthrows-Green

That's the one I was thinking of. Apparently we should bash A.J. for JJ making a great play but completely ignore when Andy blatantly overthrows a WIDE OPEN receiver in the end zone with zero pressure on Andy. I'm sure a certain someone will have 5 excuses for that overthrow, "NOPE! Not Andy's fault either!"

(08-20-2015, 04:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No but that happens a lot to AJ in the playoffs...eventually he has to be the one to make the play. 
He and Andy just can't seem to connect for the big one and it's a lot of back and forth. 

AJ can't haul in a pass then Dalton misses him the next time. But people only remember the latter. It's happened just about every game. 

No doubt AJ needs to show up in the big games. Everyone does.

This is my biggest negative. Marv doesn't know how to coach these guys up for the big ones.

(08-20-2015, 04:13 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I just can't call it a "$20 million throw" and give 100% of the blame to A.J., Andy could have definitely put it in a better place for him. The defender also made a good play on it, can't discredit him for that.

And you wonder why people think you're an Andy "hater"? It's 100% Andy's fault for his TOs, but it's not 100% AJ's fault for dropping what should have been a completed pass.

(08-22-2015, 10:14 AM)PhilHos Wrote: And you wonder why people think you're an Andy "hater"? It's 100% Andy's fault for his TOs, but it's not 100% AJ's fault for dropping what should have been a completed pass.

If Andy throws the ball to the defense, it's his fault, not Gio's for fumbling 2 quarters earlier. I have no problem cutting Andy some slack for the turnovers that are legitimately not his fault.

A.J. didn't drop the pass, so stop it. The defender broke it up. Did you even watch the play? Have you ever played WR or CB in your life? Sure, A.J. could have done more on that pass, but let's stop acting like he dropped it, that's absurd. He was adjusting to an underthrown ball and the defense made a play and A.J. didn't put enough effort in to haul it in. I have no problem knocking A.J. for the effort on the play.

And you wonder why people think you continue to be the 2nd biggest Andy nuthugger on the boards

Also, did I say it's "100% Andy's fault for every turnover"?? No, I didn't. I think it's stupid to say that Gio's fumble caused Andy's 3 turnovers because "omg cause and effect n stuff". That's stupid. You could easily excuse almost every QB in the league if you want to play that spinning game. I'm not forcing a bunch of unnecessary blame on Andy as much as I was arguing with Brownshoe who was trying to alleviate ALL the blame from his dearly beloved. Andy has made some good decisions and good throws in the past that have resulted in turnovers, the 3 turnovers in the Chargers game don't fall into that category whatsoever. Anyone trying to say he played well in that game is just trolling or far too obsessed with 1 player to have an objective conversation.

(08-22-2015, 11:19 AM)djs7685 Wrote: If Andy throws the ball to the defense, it's his fault, not Gio's for fumbling 2 quarters earlier. I have no problem cutting Andy some slack for the turnovers that are legitimately not his fault.

Could've fooled me.

djs7685 Wrote:A.J. didn't drop the pass, so stop it. The defender broke it up. Did you even watch the play? Have you ever played WR or CB in your life? Sure, A.J. could have done more on that pass, but let's stop acting like he dropped it, that's absurd. He was adjusting to an underthrown ball and the defense made a play and A.J. didn't put enough effort in to haul it in. I have no problem knocking A.J. for the effort on the play.

Firstly, the ball was not underthrown. 

Secondly, you really want to go the "have you ever played [insert position here]" game? Have you ever played QB? No, you haven't, so by your own logic, you have no right to critize Dalton.

Thirdly, the defender did knock the ball down true, however, AJ had both hands on the ball and could easily have secured it so it would NOT have been knocked out. That's what I mean by he dropped it. AJ is a great receiver and had 2 hands on the ball. It should NOT have been knocked out of his hands.

Lastly, it sure sounds like you're trying to excuse AJ dropping, er excuse me, not securing the football. At least, in the same manner that people supposedly "defend" Dalton by pointing out the rest of the team's issues in the playoffs.

djs Wrote:And you wonder why people think you continue to be the 2nd biggest Andy nuthugger on the boards 

No one thinks that of me and even if they did, I certainly wouldn't care enough to wonder why. But hey, why deal with facts when you can make things up?

djs Wrote:Also, did I say it's "100% Andy's fault for every turnover"?? No, I didn't. I think it's stupid to say that Gio's fumble caused Andy's 3 turnovers because "omg cause and effect n stuff". That's stupid.

I agree.

djs Wrote:You could easily excuse almost every QB in the league if you want to play that spinning game. I'm not forcing a bunch of unnecessary blame on Andy as much as I was arguing with Brownshoe who was trying to alleviate ALL the blame from his dearly beloved. Andy has made some good decisions and good throws in the past that have resulted in turnovers, the 3 turnovers in the Chargers game don't fall into that category whatsoever. Anyone trying to say he played well in that game is just trolling or far too obsessed with 1 player to have an objective conversation.

Actually, Andy played well in the first half of the Chargers game. 2nd half, not so much. AND while he is responsible for those TOs, they weren't 100% his fault, either. Well, the 2nd INT was, IIRC, cause that was just a bad decision under no pressure.

(08-20-2015, 04:26 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Even to this "average standard", Andy has played like garbage in the playoffs.

I don't care what anyone tries to say, that's the absolute truth of the matter and about 98% of others will agree with that.

I don't think Andy is the SOLE reason we lose those games, I've never said that, but he's definitely one of the reasons and he's played like shit.

Yeah, I agree, an average QB would have done more in the playoffs. No one can sensibly argue that he's been even 'ok' in the playoffs.

But, not to make excuses, the whole team played below an average team in the recent playoff games. And, the coaches were sub-average as well.

At some point they have to step up or any number of them are going to be somewhere else. That goes for Lewis, Dalton and anyone else.

I'm hoping the hype about Dalton having a really good training camp translates into a really good season. But heard it all before and really he's never had a really good season yet in his career. 2013 was pretty good until, well, the playoffs where he imploded and became a turnover machine in the second half.