(11-21-2017, 11:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Somewhere between tightwad and squeezing quarters til the eagle shits.

Lol!

(11-21-2017, 11:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You realize there are some owners who would spend $250 million a year on their roster if there was no salary cap...and that's in a league with revenue sharing.

Well there are no salary caps on hiring coaches and hiring scouts. So teams like the Steelers and Ravens hire a lot of scouts to try getting the advantage.

Scouting is more than just watching games on TV or subscribing to Kipers report. There are quotes from Mike Brown and John Clayton about how the Bengals subscribe to scouting services like the rest of the NFL. Mike Brown viewed it as a positive. Clayton viewed it as a negative as he believes you have to see the players in person and get to learn their personality.

Clayton is right there is a lot more that goes into scouting then just looking at scouting reports on the internet. Mike isn't bright and his dumbass is the biggest handicap in all of pro sports. It says a lot about Marvin that in 15 seasons he has an over 500 record with Mike as an owner.

(11-21-2017, 11:31 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Lol!
Clayton is right there is a lot more that goes into scouting then just looking at scouting reports on the internet. Mike isn't bright and his dumbass is the biggest handicap in all of pro sports. It says a lot about Marvin that in 15 seasons he has an over 500 record with Mike as an owner.

Yeah...at some point we have to realize that our great drafts were mainly luck and won't be the norm.

They've obviously been using guys like Kiper and some other scouting services in recent years...thus analysts generally rank our grades on draft day decent. But, there are more to drafts than just picking the best prospects.

It's about finding the right players to fit your scheme. The Bengals don't seem to do this.

(11-21-2017, 10:40 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...the notion that scouting departments are shrinking is totally false:


Steelers:
The Steelers have 19 people in their 'Football Operations' Department.
http://www.steelers.com/team/front-office.html

Bengals:
The Bengals have 8 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.bengals.com/team/staff-directory.html

Ravens:
The Ravens have 25 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/front-office.html

Before you discount that numbers matter...both of these teams have won 2 Super Bowls each since we've won a playoff game and they've appeared in a combined 6!

Browns:
The Browns have 32 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department:
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

In the mid 2000s the Steelers had over 30 scouts....lol the Bengals had more scouts in the 90s than they do now.

(11-21-2017, 11:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals
8 people in our Scouting Department. 26 people in our Ticket Sales Department.

Steelers
19 people in their Scouting Department. 6 people in their Ticket Sales Department.

LOL! That is hilariously pathetic and completely, understandably, very Bengals. 

What a bunch of freaking morons. I bet you at least 23 of them are related to Mike. 

Browns with 32 people in their scouting department!  Wow! Certainly they're super bowl bound with those guys! 
Suppose you run a business and decide to hire 1000 new accountants. Well surely your dollars and cents are ALL going to add up perfect every time and you'll make a gazillion bucks because you have the most accountants despite the fact that you only have 10 employees other than the 1000 accountants and you hired those accountants with a sign on the bathroom wall at the local bar: Wanted: Anyone who can add 2+2. Great pay and benefits, but heck, you have 1000 accountants..
It's not the amount of people, it's the quality of the people. You can have 8 very bright, well trained people on your staff or 50 people who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions stamped on the heel. Guess which ones are probably going to be more reliable? The 8 or the 50? Gee, tough call. 

(11-22-2017, 02:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: Browns with 32 people in their scouting department!  Wow! Certainly they're super bowl bound with those guys! 
Suppose you run a business and decide to hire 1000 new accountants. Well surely your dollars and cents are ALL going to add up perfect every time and you'll make a gazillion bucks because you have the most accountants despite the fact that you only have 10 employees other than the 1000 accountants and you hired those accountants with a sign on the bathroom wall at the local bar: Wanted: Anyone who can add 2+2. Great pay and benefits, but heck, you have 1000 accountants..
It's not the amount of people, it's the quality of the people. You can have 8 very bright, well trained people on your staff or 50 people who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions stamped on the heel. Guess which ones are probably going to be more reliable? The 8 or the 50? Gee, tough call. 

So you think our 8 scouts are just 3 times as good as the Steelers 19?

We haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years. The Steelers have 6 Super Bowls.

Both the Steelers and Ravens have WON 2 SUPER BOWLS since we last won a playoff game and appeared in 6.

It's clear that what the Bengals do doesn't work and when it does work it will be an anamoly and short-lived. We've had exactly 3 of 49 seasons contain a playoff win. 3!

(11-21-2017, 11:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals
8 people in our Scouting Department. 26 people in our Ticket Sales Department.

Steelers
19 people in their Scouting Department. 6 people in their Ticket Sales Department.

Pretty telling about the Scouting Departments. Still, so many Steeler bandwagon fans doubt they have problems EVER
selling tickets and this is where winning comes in. MB would make so much more money if he went into FA trying to get
a proven top tier player once in awhile because we wouldn't have to just rely on unproven players being coached up by
our inferior coaches, specifically our O-line coach.

In the end though we have to change what can be changed and that is the coaching if we want to improve.

The owner will be the owner until he hands over the keys to Katie or he dies.

(11-22-2017, 12:55 AM)Synric Wrote: In the mid 2000s the Steelers had over 30 scouts....lol the Bengals had more scouts in the 90s than they do now.

Well RIGHT NOW we have 11 scouts less than the Steelers and 17 less than the Ravens.

(11-21-2017, 11:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals
8 people in our Scouting Department. 26 people in our Ticket Sales Department.

Steelers
19 people in their Scouting Department. 6 people in their Ticket Sales Department.

I just choked on my coffee laughing at this!!! IDK why, but it just was funny!

(11-22-2017, 02:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So you think our 8 scouts are just 3 times as good as the Steelers 19?

We haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years. The Steelers have 6 Super Bowls.

Both the Steelers and Ravens have WON 2 SUPER BOWLS since we last won a playoff game and appeared in 6.

It's clear that what the Bengals do doesn't work and when it does work it will be an anamoly and short-lived. We've had exactly 3 of 49 seasons contain a playoff win. 3!

BTW, how big is the Patriots Scouting Department?

Heard Belicheck likes less minds in the room. If the Pats have a small scouting department like the Bengals it seems like less
of a problem. Their scouts must be MUCH better than the Steelers.

(11-22-2017, 02:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pretty telling about the Scouting Departments. Still, so many Steeler bandwagon fans doubt they have problems EVER
selling tickets and this is where winning comes in. MB would make so much more money if he went into FA trying to get
a proven top tier player once in awhile because we wouldn't have to just rely on unproven players being coached up by
our inferior coaches, specifically our O-line coach.

In the end though we have to change what can be changed and that is the coaching if we want to improve.

The owner will be the owner until he hands over the keys to Katie or he dies.

This article says it all:

GEORGETOWN, Ky. -- The revolution marches on in a lush-green field three miles from the Georgetown Scott County Airport. If the billboards and the urinal-cake campaign didn't do it, didn't stir the Cincinnati Bengals out of an 18-year slumber, surely Andrew Simon's banner will.

Simon was 8 years old the last time Cincinnati won a playoff game. Now he's a 27-year-old instigator, plunking down $1,000 for a guy named Bud to fly his single-engine prop plane over Bengals camp for an hour with a tersely worded message for team president Mike Brown. Simon's cell phone rings on an unseasonably cool Friday night during training camp. There is a problem: Bud is being denied access to the airport runway. But the fan uprising must carry on, so the plane lands near a church, and a banner that says "101-187-1 ... HIRE A GM!" is attached.



The tiny red-and-white plane manages to take off, banner in tow, and buzzes over the Bengals' scrimmage, over Brown, who's seated on a patio. By all accounts, the leader of Bengaldom is unfazed. He fixes his eyes on the football field. Another hopeful summer trudges on.


"What plane?" Bengals coach Marvin Lewis says jokingly after the flyby. "I think [Brown] feels like it's a waste of natural resources. I mean, that's all he says about it. He says, 'Well, if they've got that kind of money, they ought to buy some tickets.'"

It's hard, explaining futility, when it takes hold of a franchise for the better part of 18 years and refuses to let go. When it comes in a league built for parity and collides with a family legacy.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4417295

If it were me, regardless of the franchise I own, I would do everything in my power, within the rules and ethics, to model my organization as close to I could possibly get to the best and most consistent franchise for the last 15 years, the NE Patriots.

How? By finding out their techniques and philosophies they use on everything they do.

People say, "Yeah, but they have Tom Brady!" Here's the problem with that philosophy, NE wins with or without Brady. I will go as far as this and say that if Brady were on ANY other team, without Billy B. and the Pats organization, he would still be a good QB, but not the QB he is at NE!! (Debate this and call my crazy, but the proof is in the pudding, when he sits out!)

I'm not so sold on the idea, that not having a huge scouting department is our biggest problem. We've drafted players that had pretty good college resumes. Our biggest problem is finding coaches that can push these players up to their potential. We don't have that.

(11-22-2017, 02:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This article says it all:

GEORGETOWN, Ky. -- The revolution marches on in a lush-green field three miles from the Georgetown Scott County Airport. If the billboards and the urinal-cake campaign didn't do it, didn't stir the Cincinnati Bengals out of an 18-year slumber, surely Andrew Simon's banner will.

Simon was 8 years old the last time Cincinnati won a playoff game. Now he's a 27-year-old instigator, plunking down $1,000 for a guy named Bud to fly his single-engine prop plane over Bengals camp for an hour with a tersely worded message for team president Mike Brown. Simon's cell phone rings on an unseasonably cool Friday night during training camp. There is a problem: Bud is being denied access to the airport runway. But the fan uprising must carry on, so the plane lands near a church, and a banner that says "101-187-1 ... HIRE A GM!" is attached.



The tiny red-and-white plane manages to take off, banner in tow, and buzzes over the Bengals' scrimmage, over Brown, who's seated on a patio. By all accounts, the leader of Bengaldom is unfazed. He fixes his eyes on the football field. Another hopeful summer trudges on.


"What plane?" Bengals coach Marvin Lewis says jokingly after the flyby. "I think [Brown] feels like it's a waste of natural resources. I mean, that's all he says about it. He says, 'Well, if they've got that kind of money, they ought to buy some tickets.'"

It's hard, explaining futility, when it takes hold of a franchise for the better part of 18 years and refuses to let go. When it comes in a league built for parity and collides with a family legacy.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4417295

Man i feel the same as this Simon guy, atleast he is trying to let it be known what us long time fans think. Was 6 when they
lost the second SB to the Niners, then had to go through those dreaded nineties.

Complacency, mediocrity and lack of accountability seem to be the order of the last 3 decades.

MB, Marv and PA are wastes of natural resources lmao

Seriously frustrating.

(11-22-2017, 02:43 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I'm not so sold on the idea, that not having a huge scouting department is our biggest problem. We've drafted players that had pretty good college resumes. Our biggest problem is finding coaches that can push these players up to their potential. We don't have that.

It's the NFL...almost any player you draft is good in college. You need scouts to determine if they fit your system. If they have a good attitude. If they are overated.

Take Ced - He had a major injury in college. He gave up a decent amount of sacks his last year in college. He played in a wide open offense with Manziel as his QB. He was very athletic and has a prototypical Tackle body. Our offensive line coach supposedly jumped on the table lobbying for him.

That's where scouts come in. The guy gave up a bunch of sacks and wasn't playing in a system close to ours. You need scouts to make the call. Instead the line coach made the call and he's pretty terrible.

A guy like Klingler played in a spread offense in college. How will that translate to the Pros? Scouts.

A guy like Akili Smith that had 1 good year in college? Is he a 1 year wonder or does he have the fundamentals to be a good Pro? Scouts.

When your coaches do the scouting, they're going to play guys they wanted drafted for way too long to try to prove the pick was ok. They're inheritantly biased.

(11-22-2017, 02:39 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: If it were me, regardless of the franchise I own, I would do everything in my power, within the rules and ethics, to model my organization as close to I could possibly get to the best and most consistent franchise for the last 15 years, the NE Patriots.

How?  By finding out their techniques and philosophies they use on everything they do.

People say, "Yeah, but they have Tom Brady!"  Here's the problem with that philosophy, NE wins with or without Brady.  I will go as far as this and say that if Brady were on ANY other team, without Billy B. and the Pats organization, he would still be a good QB, but not the QB he is at NE!!  (Debate this and call my crazy, but the proof is in the pudding, when he sits out!)

I agree, try to model your organization after the best if you are not succeeding with the way you are doing it.

But this is making adjustments man, you know, that journalistic jargon shit.

(11-22-2017, 02:43 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I'm not so sold on the idea, that not having a huge scouting department is our biggest problem. We've drafted players that had pretty good college resumes. Our biggest problem is finding coaches that can push these players up to their potential. We don't have that.

Yeah, coaching is the biggest problem in my opinion as well. We draft pretty damn well, i mean except for O-line lately
where PA is picking players that don't even fit his own scheme. Luckily we can change coaches, like i said, have to change
what can be changed. MB and the Blackburn's are going nowhere.

(11-21-2017, 08:04 PM)Synric Wrote: I keep hearing the the 5.5 million thing and I know Lapham said it, but didn't Lapham also say they were going to let Free Agency determine how much Zeitler was worth? That's completely different...

Also Lapham Hobson the Bengals hell even Whitworth was saying Andrew Whitworth was gonna resign with the Bengals...until he signed with the Rams lol. 

I hate kicking this into the ground, but the Front Office should have never let the Zietler situation even go into Free Agency and resigned him a year earlier.
In doing this, it maybe have helped switch Whitworth's mindset to resign as well. Hindsight being 20/20, now the Bengals need to pull a Minnesota Vikings and bring in 5 completely new OLineman type situation because keeping 4 of the worst lineman at their positions in the league is just insanity, and I dont want to hear well so and so is improving. Shut up, you got it wrong, and start over.

(11-22-2017, 02:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree, try to model your organization after the best if you are not succeeding with the way you are doing it.

But this is making adjustments man, you know, that journalistic jargon shit.


Yeah, coaching is the biggest problem in my opinion as well. We draft pretty damn well, i mean except for O-line lately
where PA is picking players that don't even fit his own scheme. Luckily we can change coaches, like i said, have to change
what can be changed. MB and the Blackburn's are going nowhere.

It's really hard to say that we draft well or don't. We see the guys don't turn out well and assume it is coaches...but like Willie said recently the coaches are tasked with paperwork and we know they have to scout.

Plus, IF you get 2 quality starters out of any 1 draft you did good. We let guys go and draft guys and force young guys to start. The hit rate on 1st Round picks ever becoming quality starters is like 50%. When you're relying on 3rd and 4th Rounders...that's a very low success rate. In some cases, we'd be better served signing free agents.

(11-22-2017, 02:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's the NFL...almost any player you draft is good in college. You need scouts to determine if they fit your system. If they have a good attitude. If they are overated.

Take Ced - He had a major injury in college. He gave up a decent amount of sacks his last year in college. He played in a wide open offense with Manziel as his QB. He was very athletic and has a prototypical Tackle body. Our offensive line coach supposedly jumped on the table lobbying for him.

That's where scouts come in. The guy gave up a bunch of sacks and wasn't playing in a system close to ours. You need scouts to make the call. Instead the line coach made the call and he's pretty terrible.

A guy like Klingler played in a spread offense in college. How will that translate to the Pros? Scouts.

A guy like Akili Smith that had 1 good year in college? Is he a 1 year wonder or does he have the fundamentals to be a good Pro? Scouts.

When your coaches do the scouting, they're going to play guys they wanted drafted for way too long to try to prove the pick was ok. They're inheritantly biased.

I get what you are putting down, but if PA is lobbying hard for a player, like Ced, what good is a scout? Everybody and their brother saw his tape of getting beat a lot.
I agree that coaches are going to prove everybody wrong and wait too long to finally say they were wrong. Again that goes back to coaches. I usually get 2 or 3 draft magazines every spring, just to know who players are. I am being honest here, I don't even remember Ced being mentioned in any of those magazines...

(11-22-2017, 03:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's really hard to say that we draft well or don't. We see the guys don't turn out well and assume it is coaches...but like Willie said recently the coaches are tasked with paperwork and we know they have to scout.

Plus, IF you get 2 quality starters out of any 1 draft you did good. We let guys go and draft guys and force young guys to start. The hit rate on 1st Round picks ever becoming quality starters is like 50%. When you're relying on 3rd and 4th Rounders...that's a very low success rate. In some cases, we'd be better served signing free agents.

Cannot disagree with any of this Pistons. Just saying i think coaching is the biggest problem here.

The draft has always been a crapshoot and all the players from the #1 pick on down are unproven, which is why we should
sign atleast 1 top tier FA once in awhile that is proven if we want to get over the hump.