(11-22-2017, 10:54 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Because the Bengals defense has given up the most 3rd downs and bottom 5 in stopping opponents on 3rd down? Teams run all over them.
They're bottom 5 against the run and 3rd down stops. Bottom 10 with opponents running on 3rd down and gaining a 1st down.

Remember how the Ravens literally ran down the field against the Bengals?

You can't sit here and say "Oh well teams aren't scoring much on us, we bend but don't break".

And that's the point. Opponents know this. Why score when you can keep the ball for almost 34 minutes a game? You KNOW they struggle against 3rd downs and will bend. So why try to take big shots when you can tire them out? There's different strategies for every game. No one is going to attack the Bengals defense the same way the Steelers defense. And we saw that back-to-back weeks. What worked on the Bengals surely didn't work on the Steelers

Our offense and defense are both terrible on 3rd down. That means failure in the NFL.

There are 3 teams in the bottom half (16) on defense on 3rd down. On offense, all 3 are are in the top 12.

But it's just not points. It's points and yards the 2 things a D is judged by. If a defense holds a team to top 12 in the league in yards and points then folks saying "but look at 3rd down conversions" are just looking for something to complain about. 

If the season were to start today and someone told you the Bengal D will be top 12 in the NFL in points and yards, would your next question be "But what about 3rd down conversions?"

(11-22-2017, 10:58 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I just don't believe you honestly in this case.

You can honestly believe if I'm told a defense is top 12 in the league in points and yards that I would not look to them if you told me that team was also 3-6. 

But if you told me a team was 29th or worse in points and yards in the league then I would look at them if you told me the team was 3-6 and I would say to them: Your D must be helping you out.  

(11-22-2017, 10:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My question is why does it matter?

If you are in the top dozen in the NFL in yards per game and points per game what motivation would someone have to point how many 3rd down conversation the opponent makes? Last I checked those are worth no points. 

But to answer your question: I think it's the bend, don't break philosophy. We don't want to give up the big play.  

Simple field position- the Bengals get three and outs the opposing team has to punt it away from a further distance. Team punts it away from further Bengals get the ball closer to the opponents end zone it gives them a high chance of scoring.

(11-22-2017, 11:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But it's just not points. It's points and yards the 2 things a D is judged by. If a defense holds a team to top 12 in the league in yards and points then folks saying "but look at 3rd down conversions" are just looking for something to complain about. 

If the season were to start today and someone told you the Bengal D will be top 12 in the NFL in points and yards, would your next question be "But what about 3rd down conversions?"

If the topic involved TOP, yes. I would ask about 3rd downs and turnovers forced. Both have a major impact on TOP.

The defense was very good through the 1st five weeks: 28 78 41 81

They gave an average of only 262 total yards, 103 rushing yards, 17 1st downs and 16.7 pts per game...allowing a 35.6 3rd down conversion rate.

The last five weeks have been a different story:

They're giving up an average of 383 total yards, 142 rushing yards, 23 1st downs and 23 pts per game...allowing a 50.6 3rd down conversion rate.

The offense certainly hasn't done it's job very well over the last 5 weeks, gaining less than 200 yards 3 times, and it's absolutely lead to the defense being on the field more than they should. Having said that, they're not doing themselves any favors by giving up so many 3rd downs conversions, which means they have to stay on the field even longer. 

(11-22-2017, 11:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If the topic involved TOP, yes. I would ask about 3rd downs and turnovers forced. Both have a major impact on TOP.

Well let's pretend the topic is offensive versus defensive performance. 

(11-22-2017, 11:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You can honestly believe if I'm told a defense is top 12 in the league in points and yards that I would not look to them if you told me that team was also 3-6. 

But if you told me a team was 29th or worse in points and yards in the league then I would look at them if you told me the team was 3-6 and I would say to them: Your D must be helping you out.  

C'mon man.

You know what the problem is on offense.

You know the team.  Not just some random guy just looking at a stat sheet.

Just like you know the difference is between giving up 7 points in a handful of downs and getting picked apart on a long TOP drive.

Which by the way neither is good in the grand scheme.

SO unless the D gets them off on 3rd downs(especially 3rd 17 and 3rd 12 type scenarios) or creating turnovers(where are they ranked in that stat line?)they are shooting themselves in the foot.

It's this uncontested bullshit defense that Guenther has gotten accustomed too that is causing this.

Players under-performing and not stopping the player after the catch and allowing extra yards, or committing penalties to make the 1st downs only makes it worse.

Stop playing these games.  You know this team. 

There is no way you can't see that the offense which is in need of help because they are one dimensional(no run game which again is on the O-Line and kills TOP)is not getting the ball back to have more attempts at yardage or scoring.

8 out of the 12 playoff teams are in the top 16 in 3rd down Defensive stop percentage. 10 out of the 12 playoff teams are in the top 16 in 3rd down conversion percentage on offense.

(11-22-2017, 11:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well let's pretend the topic is offensive versus defensive performance. 

I feel they're equally to blame for the TOP issues, but overall the defense has played better than the offense so far, despite their struggles in certain areas.

(11-22-2017, 11:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But it's just not points. It's points and yards the 2 things a D is judged by. If a defense holds a team to top 12 in the league in yards and points then folks saying "but look at 3rd down conversions" are just looking for something to complain about. 

If the season were to start today and someone told you the Bengal D will be top 12 in the NFL in points and yards, would your next question be "But what about 3rd down conversions?"

At nearly every NFL losing coaches presser he mentions losing on 3rd down both offense and defense as to why the game was lost. So one might think it's important ? In their minds anyways.

I've never heard one say "well we're still top 12 in the league in total defense even though we're 4 - 6, so there's that." "Even if we did let them convert 9 of 15 times on 3rd down including 4 of 8 yards plus."

BTW, we're only 12th in total yards allowed on defense. We're 6th in passing yards allowed most likely because the opposition hasn't had to throw much in the 2nd half. They can grind it out running the ball which is why we're 27th in rushing yards allowed at 122 per game. And we're 22nd in points allowed at 19.9 per game. We've been outscored in the 2nd half of games this season 102 - 54.

It matters, period ! You do understand their offense gets to stay on the field when they convert on 3rd down right ? Which means our offense is sitting on the sideline. It quite often changes field position. You have noticed we can't sustain drives or march the length of the field with any kind of regularity haven't you ?

Do you think having a short field once or twice a game would benefit this anemic offense any ? 

(11-23-2017, 03:07 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: At nearly every NFL losing coaches presser he mentions losing on 3rd down both offense and defense as to why the game was lost. So one might think it's important ? In their minds anyways.

I've never heard one say "well we're still top 12 in the league in total defense even though we're 4 - 6, so there's that." "Even if we did let them convert 9 of 15 times on 3rd down including 4 of 8 yards plus."

BTW, we're only 12th in total yards allowed on defense. We're 6th in passing yards allowed most likely because the opposition hasn't had to throw much in the 2nd half. They can grind it out running the ball which is why we're 27th in rushing yards allowed at 122 per game. And we're 22nd in points allowed at 19.9 per game. We've been outscored in the 2nd half of games this season 102 - 54.

It matters, period ! You do understand their offense gets to stay on the field when they convert on 3rd down right ? Which means our offense is sitting on the sideline. It quite often changes field position. You have noticed we can't sustain drives or march the length of the field with any kind of regularity haven't you ?

Do you think having a short field once or twice a game would benefit this anemic offense any ? 

Dude we're good pass defense- top 10 in sacks, yard per attempt, %, and QB rating the only thing we don't really do well is INTs which were 21st in. 
Also were 10th in points not 22nd your looking at the stats wrong.
Bfine isn't wrong we do have a playoff caliber Defense the problem is there capable of much more and their not producing like it. The main issue they have is 3rd down defense but that doesn't mean their bad.

(11-22-2017, 11:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But it's just not points. It's points and yards the 2 things a D is judged by. If a defense holds a team to top 12 in the league in yards and points then folks saying "but look at 3rd down conversions" are just looking for something to complain about. 

If the season were to start today and someone told you the Bengal D will be top 12 in the NFL in points and yards, would your next question be "But what about 3rd down conversions?"

Hey. What do you know. Stats don't tell everything that happens on the football field.

What would you say about our offense if I told you Andy Dalton ranked in the top 9 of passing touchdowns and top 15 in QB rating? Or that he had the best QB rating, most TDs, and less INTs than every other QB in our division?
Sure. Not the highest passing yardage (18th overall). But by those stats alone, you would think our passing offense is doing pretty well, huh?

(11-23-2017, 03:41 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Dude we're good pass defense- top 10 in sacks, yard per attempt, %, and QB rating the only thing we don't really do well is INTs which were 21st in. 
Also were 10th in points not 22nd your looking at the stats wrong.
Bfine isn't wrong we do have a playoff caliber Defense the problem is there capable of much more and their not producing like it. The main issue they have is 3rd down defense but that doesn't mean their bad.

I don't know if they're a "playoff caliber" defense. They struggled against the Ravens, Packers, Steelers, Colts, Jaguars, and Titans.

Ravens have a terrible offense and Flacco didn't practice and was coming off a bad injury. And we couldn't stop them.
Aaron Rodgers is Aaron Rodgers, so it's hard for any defense.
Steelers were getting open and did everything they wanted.
Colts also have a bad offense. They did crack down at the end and create a turnover to win the game. So credit is deserved.
Jaguars dismantled our defense. You might say "But they didn't give up a punt TD". They were on our 1 yard line in the 4th quarter and gave mercy. They couldn't stop them.
Titans were getting the Bengals out of place and order. And the defense gave up another game winning drive.

The defense isn't our weak link. No one is saying that. But it's not what it once was and we need to admit that.

(11-23-2017, 05:27 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Hey. What do you know. Stats don't tell everything that happens on the football field.

What would you say about our offense if I told you Andy Dalton ranked in the top 9 of passing touchdowns and top 15 in QB rating? Or that he had the best QB rating, most TDs, and less INTs than every other QB in our division?
Sure. Not the highest passing yardage (18th overall). But by those stats alone, you would think our passing offense is doing pretty well, huh?

I would say, just like your critique of the D you are being quite selective with the stats you choose to use. Narrowing the competition to 3 teams and 2 of those team absolutely terrible on offense.

I'd also 15th in passer rating is about where I would expect Andy to be and that's a solid stat; just not as high s our D rates in the two main defensive categories: yards and points.

I really don't know what folks are trying to do in this thread. I thought it was a comparison of our offense's performance versus our defense's performance. Seems folks will agree but still want to argue. Our defense is not the reason this team sits at 3-6 

(11-23-2017, 03:41 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Dude we're good pass defense- top 10 in sacks, yard per attempt, %, and QB rating the only thing we don't really do well is INTs which were 21st in. 
Also were 10th in points not 22nd your looking at the stats wrong.
Bfine isn't wrong we do have a playoff caliber Defense the problem is there capable of much more and their not producing like it. The main issue they have is 3rd down defense but that doesn't mean their bad.

I did mess that up, sorry it was late.

I fully agree the defense is less responsible for our ineptness than the offense. But in the same breath they've contributed to the problems in many ways.

The offense, specifically the O-line is the elephant in the room, there's little doubt ! Like Holic or somebody said the D was pretty stout in the first 5 games, the last 5 they've borderline stunk as bad as the O !

By and large if you go back and examine big games, playoffs, prime time, vs. Steelers, vs. Pats, losing streaks, etc. The defense folds just as bad as the offense. 

(11-23-2017, 05:36 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I don't know if they're a "playoff caliber" defense. They struggled against the Ravens, Packers, Steelers, Colts, Jaguars, and Titans.

Is New England a playoff caliber defense?

(11-22-2017, 05:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We are 10th in points allowed, not 4th.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

We are also...

27th in rush yards allowed
27th in forced turnovers (which hurts the offense and TOP)
28th in opponent's 3rd down % (which hurts the offense and TOP)
Dead last in 3rd down conversions allowed

All of which screams "Bend but don't break" which is the biggest ***** way of playing defense in the world.  Pisses me off to no end.  Oh, we will sorta just go through the motions but tighten up when they get in FG range.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.

And who else thinks that the "defense from France, run the other way with your hands in the air" improves in the red zone because it FINALLY TIGHTENS UP THE DEFENSE?  They will bail off the line of scrimmage for 20 yard sometimes.  Did we ever see Troy Polumalu drop like that pre-snap?  No?  He was looking to jump a route and make a play.  This team, based on their coaching, plays not to give up big plays on defense.  How motivating it must be for these guys!  No wonder they look flatter than Kansas out there!  

I know I keep saying the same thing over and over again, but I hate this coaching staff and there is not one of them I want retained.  Not one. 

(11-23-2017, 10:41 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: All of which screams "Bend but don't break" which is the biggest ***** way of playing defense in the world.  Pisses me off to no end.  Oh, we will sorta just go through the motions but tighten up when they get in FG range.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.

And who else thinks that the "defense from France, run the other way with your hands in the air" improves in the red zone because it FINALLY TIGHTENS UP THE DEFENSE?  They will bail off the line of scrimmage for 20 yard sometimes.  Did we ever see Troy Polumalu drop like that pre-snap?  No?  He was looking to jump a route and make a play.  This team, based on their coaching, plays not to give up big plays on defense.  How motivating it must be for these guys!  No wonder they look flatter than Kansas out there!  

I know I keep saying the same thing over and over again, but I hate this coaching staff and there is not one of them I want retained.  Not one. 

And THAT is why most fans don't want Guenther as a HC for this team.

If the D were playing great they'd being clamoring big time for him to be the heir apparent.

I'm going to confirm my stance with the D for Bfine.

The Offense is struggling.  Nobody denies that.

The defense is not the achilles heel for this team.

Yet they could stand to improve big time.  Especially on 3rd down, tackling, and costly penalties.

The only reason people are talking negatively about the D is because some posters keep saying their poor play is directly attributed to being "gassed".

Also turning a blind eye that poor play between the 20s contributes to lack of TOP.

Just stop playing games Bfine.  You know what posters are saying.

(11-23-2017, 05:27 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Hey. What do you know. Stats don't tell everything that happens on the football field.

What would you say about our offense if I told you Andy Dalton ranked in the top 9 of passing touchdowns and top 15 in QB rating? Or that he had the best QB rating, most TDs, and less INTs than every other QB in our division?
Sure. Not the highest passing yardage (18th overall). But by those stats alone, you would think our passing offense is doing pretty well, huh?

Or to put it in his terms, what if you told him all that and then told him the team was 3-6. 

He would tell you, "the D must not be helping the team out". 

(11-22-2017, 11:16 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Simple field position- the Bengals get three and outs the opposing team has to punt it away from a further distance. Team punts it away from further Bengals get the ball closer to the opponents end zone it gives them a high chance of scoring.

Yep.  This is painfully simple to see to anyone not refusing to see it or just bizarrely arguing for the sake of arguing.  Evidently, someone always has to play the Fred role.

The offense is worse than the defense but the defense is in steady decline, trying hard to catch up, apparently.

Vinnie Rey does not belong on an NFL field.  Neither does Hardy Nickerson.  Nick Vigil is a great tackle the runner seven yards down the field LB with basically zero coverage skills.  Jordan Evans is our second best LB but, for some reason, it takes an act of Congress or an injury for him to play.  And the tackling is atrocious.

Talent is our biggest issue on offense, specifically on the line, though scheming and teaching is antiquated and stupid and not doing the stiffs up front any favors.

On defense, chicken shit schemes and ***** coaching are the problem.  The man power is there on D.  The aggression isn't.