(11-23-2017, 11:37 AM)McC Wrote: Yep.  This is painfully simple to see to anyone not refusing to see it or just bizarrely arguing for the sake of arguing.  Evidently, someone always has to play the Fred role.

The offense is worse than the defense but the defense is in steady decline, trying hard to catch up, apparently.

Vinnie Rey does not belong on an NFL field.  Neither does Hardy Nickerson.  Nick Vigil is a great tackle the runner seven yards down the field LB with basically zero coverage skills.  Jordan Evans is our second best LB but, for some reason, it takes an act of Congress or an injury for him to play.  And the tackling is atrocious.

Talent is our biggest issue on offense, specifically on the line, though scheming and teaching is antiquated and stupid and not doing the stiffs up front any favors.

On defense, chicken shit schemes and ***** coaching are the problem.  The man power is there on D.  The aggression isn't.

You forgot to add Kirkpatrick's throw a shoulder into em while leaving your head down and arms at your side tackling technique. Which doesn't work on the majority of NFL caliber players. Looks great on ESPN highlight reels if you catch em off balance/just right, but hurts way more often than not.

(11-23-2017, 11:37 AM)McC Wrote: Yep.  This is painfully simple to see to anyone not refusing to see it or just bizarrely arguing for the sake of arguing.  Evidently, someone always has to play the Fred role.

The offense is worse than the defense but the defense is in steady decline, trying hard to catch up, apparently.

This is what I am saying and I am not arguing it. I have no idea how this got twisted into me arguing. Was it that I didn't slam the defense in the comparison? 

"bfine who do you think is better the O or the D"

"I think the D is better"

"prove it"

"The D does very well in the defensive categories that defenses are judged on and the offense does poorly in the categories that offenses are judged on"

"You just was to argue with no merit!!"

(11-22-2017, 05:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We are 10th in points allowed, not 4th.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

We are also...

27th in rush yards allowed
27th in forced turnovers (which hurts the offense and TOP)
28th in opponent's 3rd down % (which hurts the offense and TOP)
Dead last in 3rd down conversions allowed

(11-23-2017, 12:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is what I am saying and I am not arguing it. I have no idea how this got twisted into me arguing. Was it that I didn't slam the defense in the comparison? 

"bfine who do you think is better the O or the D"

"I think the D is better"

"prove it"

"The D does very well in the defensive categories that defenses are judged on and the offense does poorly in the categories that offenses are judged on"

"You just was to argue with no merit!!"

I think the D is better than the offense as well.

All that is being said by me, is that they need improvement in the above stated categories.

Offense is responsible for it's own problems... but not all of the defense's problems and not all of the TOP issues.

They have played poorly on 3rd down and "being gassed" is not the only reason why.

Not creating turnovers and being weak at run defense is not helping the team either.

Those issues on Defense are really there.  Cherry picking stats doesn't make it go away. 

How much more plain and simple can that be stated?

Okay.  Yes, the Defense is playing better than the Offense.  Kewl.

It's still a team sport. Both the defense and offense play for the same team. Sounds strange, huh?
Some fans seem to want to make it out like they're in a real war instead of being in the entertainment business. If wars were entertainment (they're not) every soldier would be clamoring to jump on a live grenade for the cameras..
This is entertainment folks, nothing more, nothing less. If it's not entertaining enough change the channel and watch something else. 
I'm still convinced that this team is set up not to really win a whole lot and certainly not to win big games. 
In the big picture of things the league has to have its perennial winners and perennial losers. Guess which category we fall into? Hint: it ain't the perennial winners. 

(11-23-2017, 01:28 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I think the D is better than the offense as well.

All that is being said by me, is that they need improvement in the above stated categories.

Offense is responsible for it's own problems... but not all of the defense's problems and not all of the TOP issues.

They have played poorly on 3rd down and "being gassed" is not the only reason why.

Not creating turnovers and being weak at run defense is not helping the team either.

Those issues on Defense are really there.  Cherry picking stats doesn't make it go away. 

How much more plain and simple can that be stated?

Okay.  Yes, the Defense is playing better than the Offense.  Kewl.

Yep, Pointing to total yards and total points is "cherry picking" defensive stats.

Dang, I just like to argue. 

(11-23-2017, 09:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I would say, just like your critique of the D you are being quite selective with the stats you choose to use. Narrowing the competition to 3 teams and 2 of those team absolutely terrible on offense.

I'd also 15th in passer rating is about where I would expect Andy to be and that's a solid stat; just not as high s our D rates in the two main defensive categories: yards and points.

I really don't know what folks are trying to do in this thread. I thought it was a comparison of our offense's performance versus our defense's performance. Seems folks will agree but still want to argue. Our defense is not the reason this team sits at 3-6 

Why's that? I'm saying stats. Dalton is in the top half of the league and even top 10.

Our defense is not THE reason. It is A reason.

They gave up two game winning TDs. But I guess that's the offenses fault, huh?

(11-23-2017, 09:56 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Is New England a playoff caliber defense?

Yep. They give up yards. But over the last 6 weeks they've never allowed more than 17 points.

Plus, you have to look at competition as well. The Patriots have a much tougher schedule than the Bengals.

The Patriots have gone against 4 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Only 1 team they faced is in the bottom 10.


The Bengals have gone against 1 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Played 5 teams that are in the bottom 10.

I know that doesn't fit your narrative, but they competition is polar opposite there.

(11-23-2017, 05:36 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I don't know if they're a "playoff caliber" defense. They struggled against the Ravens, Packers, Steelers, Colts, Jaguars, and Titans.

Ravens have a terrible offense and Flacco didn't practice and was coming off a bad injury. And we couldn't stop them.
Aaron Rodgers is Aaron Rodgers, so it's hard for any defense.
Steelers were getting open and did everything they wanted.
Colts also have a bad offense. They did crack down at the end and create a turnover to win the game. So credit is deserved.
Jaguars dismantled our defense. You might say "But they didn't give up a punt TD". They were on our 1 yard line in the 4th quarter and gave mercy. They couldn't stop them.
Titans were getting the Bengals out of place and order. And the defense gave up another game winning drive.

The defense isn't our weak link. No one is saying that. But it's not what it once was and we need to admit that.

They had their share of mistakes and blown coverages which really hurt them early. I would say they played great sufficating Defense early but they gave up one or two backbreaking plays a game that really cost us games. As of late there playing soft and are getting nickled and dimed against bad QBs  and bad offenses. Colts and Jags games were unacceptable performances by them. The Titans game terrible first half but they seemed to play a lot better in the second half.

(11-21-2017, 09:41 AM)whodey4life84 Wrote: I would say time of possession is everything. What was the stat they posted during the Broncos game like the last 2 games we were literally doubled in top. Our offense constantly goes 3 and out and defense can't help but get worn down. I would imagine our defense would play much better given a lead or an offense that can do more than generate one decent drive a half of that. Offensive line is everything and the Bengals should do everything in their power to get that LT I think his name is Conor and that C from OSU, Billy Price I believe in next years draft. I honestly believe center is the most important position on the line and ours has been getting pushed into the backfield and whiffing on blocks for 4 years. PA needs to go as well but we definitely need and upgrade at those 2 positions and those 2 would solidify our line for years. Cut ties with OG and Fisher now...maybe get a late rounder for them from a team hoping they can develop them.

All the above. I would bet that there are several (many) OL coaches that could develop Og and Fisher better than PA.

(11-23-2017, 03:54 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Why's that? I'm saying stats. Dalton is in the top half of the league and even top 10.

Our defense is not THE reason. It is A reason.

They gave up two game winning TDs. But I guess that's the offenses fault, huh?


Yep. They give up yards. But over the last 6 weeks they've never allowed more than 17 points.

Plus, you have to look at competition as well. The Patriots have a much tougher schedule than the Bengals.

The Patriots have gone against 4 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Only 1 team they faced is in the bottom 10.


The Bengals have gone against 1 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Played 5 teams that are in the bottom 10.

I know that doesn't fit your narrative, but they competition is polar opposite there.

So let's make sure I understand you. You think the New England Defense is better than the Cincinnati Bengal Defense?

(11-23-2017, 02:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep, Pointing to total yards and total points is "cherry picking" defensive stats.

Dang, I just like to argue. 

I just want you to admit their flaws on D.

I also want you to admit that an Offense that's struggling is affected by a Defense that can't get the ball back.

The clock isn't ticking on the Offense.

So who is eating all the clock?

(11-23-2017, 04:35 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I just want you to admit their flaws on D.

I also want you to admit that an Offense that's struggling is affected by a Defense that can't get the ball back.

The clock isn't ticking on the Offense.

So who is eating all the clock?

Of course the D has flaws

I would be ******** if I thought/admitted the D's performance causes the Offense to struggle

The other teams are eating the clock, but it doesn't really matter if our D holds the opponent to top 12 in the league in both scoring and yards.

What is this fascination with clock? Does a team get awarded bonus points for keeping the ball or do they still just get points for scoring?

To try and spread the blame of poor record equally on the 2017 Cincinnati Bengals  between Offense and Defense is ridiculous. 

WTS, I'm gonna let you guys go; as it is post Dinner nap time. I will keep in mind how much TOP and 3rd down percentage affect the game even if it doesn't have a negative affect on yards or points surrendered.

(11-23-2017, 04:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course the D has flaws

I would be ******** if I thought/admitted the D's performance causes the Offense to struggle

The other teams are eating the clock, but it doesn't really matter if our D holds the opponent to top 12 in the league in both scoring and yards.

What is this fascination with clock? Does a team get awarded bonus points for keeping the ball or do they still just get points for scoring?

To try and spread the blame of poor record equally on the 2017 Cincinnati Bengals  between Offense and Defense is ridiculous. 

WTS, I'm gonna let you guys go; as it is post Dinner nap time. I will keep in mind how much TOP and 3rd down percentage affect the game even if it doesn't have a negative affect on yards or points surrendered.

Didn't say it caused it to struggle.

What it does, is it gives them less opportunities to play.

Duh.

(11-23-2017, 04:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So let's make sure I understand you. You think the New England Defense is better than the Cincinnati Bengal Defense?

Yep.

New England defense allows .4 more points a game. And have played against MUCH better competition.

Since you can't read, here's the stat again:

The Patriots have gone against 4 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Only 1 team they faced is in the bottom 10.



The Bengals have gone against 1 of the top 10 offenses in the NFL. Played 5 teams that are in the bottom 10.

You can argue yardage all you want. But you preach points are the most important aspect to a defense. And the Patriots have done that as well. Against. Better. Teams. Than. The. Bengals.

(11-23-2017, 05:19 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Since you can't read, here's the stat again:

Really no need to get nasty.

Bengals beat NE in Yards (Pats dead last), Points (Pats are 12th), and sacks (Pats 26th).

NE has 3 more turnovers and are 25th to the Bengals 28th in ultra important 3rd down percentage.

I may not be able to read; however, I doubt I'm alone in thinking the Cincy D is better than the NE D.



BTW what stat did you use to determine those Top 10/ Bottom 10 Offenses?  

(11-23-2017, 04:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So let's make sure I understand you. You think the New England Defense is better than the Cincinnati Bengal Defense?

The Bengals were much better through the first few weeks, but over the past few weeks, the Pats have been better.

In the past 5 weeks, the Pats defense is allowing 12.2 points and 356 yards per game.

In the past 5 weeks, the Bengals defense is allowing 23.2 points and 383 yards per game.

(11-23-2017, 07:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Bengals were much better through the first few weeks, but over the past few weeks, the Pats have been better.

In the past 5 weeks, the Pats defense is allowing 12.2 points and 356 yards per game.

In the past 5 weeks, the Bengals defense is allowing 23.2 points and 383 yards per game.

bfine32 Wrote:So let's make sure I understand you. You think the New England Defense is better than the Cincinnati Bengal Defense?

(11-23-2017, 07:25 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Bengals were much better through the first few weeks, but over the past few weeks, the Pats have been better.

In the past 5 weeks, the Pats defense is allowing 12.2 points and 356 yards per game.

In the past 5 weeks, the Bengals defense is allowing 23.2 points and 383 yards per game.

bfine32 Wrote:So let's make sure I understand you. You think the New England Defense is better than the Cincinnati Bengal Defense?

Each has been better for a 5 game stretch. We'll find out over the next 6 games which one is better overall. 

(11-23-2017, 05:02 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Didn't say it caused it to struggle.

What is does is it gives them less opportunities to play.

Duh.

Exactly. The offense is the opposite of the defense (duh again ). The shorter the defense is on the field, the fresher they are and better they should play. The offense works best when they get in a rhythm and are on the field more, getting the other team's defense tired. 

(11-23-2017, 08:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Each has been better for a 5 game stretch. We'll find out over the next 6 games which one is better overall. 

Pretty simple, no?

(11-23-2017, 08:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Each has been better for a 5 game stretch. We'll find out over the next 6 games which one is better overall. 

Seems as if you came up with your own question to answer and chose not to answer the one posed.

I can assume your answer is: It's a tie.