(11-21-2017, 08:04 PM)Synric Wrote: I keep hearing the the 5.5 million thing and I know Lapham said it, but didn't Lapham also say they were going to let Free Agency determine how much Zeitler was worth? That's completely different...

Yeah, was Zeitler really worth the ridiculous amount the Browns paid him?  Or was this purely a "hurt your divisional foe because we have cap space we HAVE to use".  I mean they paid essentially $12 million for a 2nd round draft pick and are still on the hook for 90% of Brock Osweiler's contract.  

BTW, how has it worked out of Zeitler in Cleveland?  I thought they were supposed to have this amazing offensive line?  

(11-22-2017, 02:39 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: If it were me, regardless of the franchise I own, I would do everything in my power, within the rules and ethics, to model my organization as close to I could possibly get to the best and most consistent franchise for the last 15 years, the NE Patriots.

How?  By finding out their techniques and philosophies they use on everything they do.

People say, "Yeah, but they have Tom Brady!"  Here's the problem with that philosophy, NE wins with or without Brady.  I will go as far as this and say that if Brady were on ANY other team, without Billy B. and the Pats organization, he would still be a good QB, but not the QB he is at NE!!  (Debate this and call my crazy, but the proof is in the pudding, when he sits out!)

Absolutely.

What you said reminds me of something an old boss once said during a meeting. He said "What's better ... doing things right? ... or doing the right things?"

Everybody in the meeting had an opinion, of course, and when everyone had made their points, the boss said "You're all wrong".

"Look", he said, "if you do things right but you're doing the wrong things, that's not going to work ... and if you do the right things but do them wrong, that's not gonna work either".

"What we really need to focus on", he said, "is DOING THE RIGHT THINGS RIGHT".

And that's what the Pats and Billy B. do. They do the right things all of the time and they do them the right way.

(11-21-2017, 05:00 PM)Benton Wrote: ... when what? I have to know!

I'll let you know ...












































... soon.

(11-23-2017, 10:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yeah, was Zeitler really worth the ridiculous amount the Browns paid him?  Or was this purely a "hurt your divisional foe because we have cap space we HAVE to use".  I mean they paid essentially $12 million for a 2nd round draft pick and are still on the hook for 90% of Brock Osweiler's contract.  

BTW, how has it worked out of Zeitler in Cleveland?  I thought they were supposed to have this amazing offensive line?  

Who gives a shit about Cleveland? How has it worked for us? Sure was 
He worth 12 million probably not but he should have been signed for 10 million during the prior offseason. Are line sucks and the idea to replace are to best lineman instead of our two worst lineman is completely ********. Which is what the Bengals did.

(11-24-2017, 02:40 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Who gives a shit about Cleveland? How has it worked for us? Sure was 
He worth 12 million probably not but he should have been signed for 10 million during the prior offseason. Are line sucks and the idea to replace are to best lineman instead of our two worst lineman is completely ********. Which is what the Bengals did.

Yes! We know he as a borderline Pro Bowl player here. We know they low-balled him. Who knows? Maybe he signs for $9 million here if they offered to extend him?

We have a historically bad offensive line now.

The thing about the Bengals? Yeah $12 million is overpaying Zeitler. Maybe $10 million is too much for a Guard too. But it's not like they're going to spend that money on other free agents! We're sitting there with like $12 million cap space right now.

(11-25-2017, 01:33 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes! We know he as a borderline Pro Bowl player here. We know they low-balled him. Who knows? Maybe he signs for $9 million here if they offered to extend him?

We have a historically bad offensive line now.

The thing about the Bengals? Yeah $12 million is overpaying Zeitler. Maybe $10 million is too much for a Guard too. But it's not like they're going to spend that money on other free agents! We're sitting there with like $12 million cap space right now.

Do we know they low balled Zeilter? 

There's conflicting stories from the same source. Which is it did they offer him 5.5 or were they letting free agency determine his value? 

I'm going with the latter since it's the same strategy they used with Marvin Jones, Michael Johnson, and Jonathan Joesph.

Edit: Also like to add all three of the players I mentioned above also received competitive offers from the Bengals similar to the ones they signed with other teams....and then they straight up way low balled a pro bowl caliber former first round pick? I don't buy it one second.

(11-21-2017, 04:20 PM)Synric Wrote: Also scouting departments are shrinking around the league because of technology and outside scouting agencies.

I agree to some extent but it's also important to know the players' worth ethic in practices, how well they interview with the scouts, and various other things that you just can't learn from the internet.

It definitely has become easier, but a decent size scouting department is still important, if for no other reason than to be comprehensive and up-to-date (I know the internet is up-to-date, but it doesn't include everything, plus you need scouts to keep track of everything on the internet).

(11-25-2017, 03:08 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I agree to some extent but it's also important to know the players' worth ethic in practices, how well they interview with the scouts, and various other things that you just can't learn from the internet.

It definitely has become easier, but a decent size scouting department is still important, if for no other reason than to be comprehensive and up-to-date (I know the internet is up-to-date, but it doesn't include everything, plus you need scouts to keep track of everything on the internet).

Yup. Sorta like looking for a job. If the Internet (i.e. a resume) was all that was needed, no one would ever need to go on a in-person interview.

(11-24-2017, 02:40 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Who gives a shit about Cleveland? How has it worked for us? Sure was 
He worth 12 million probably not but he should have been signed for 10 million during the prior offseason. Are line sucks and the idea to replace are to best lineman instead of our two worst lineman is completely ********. Which is what the Bengals did.

No, what is stupid is letting Bodine and Hopkins stay out there essentially having been handed the job and not ever trying the likes of TJ Johnson, Westerman, or Redmond.  Ten million would have also been stupid to pay Zeitler, who may have been the most overrated Bengal in a long time.  

No one seems capable of understanding but they sucked last year WITH THOSE GUYS.  The problem lies in the middle of the line and with the coaching scheme.  Whit will not be the first player to beat Father Time, but I hated to see him go regardless.  

The play at LT is an issue, but it isn't THE issue.  Run blocking and scheme.  That's it.  

(11-21-2017, 03:03 PM)Benton Wrote: Brown had a point.

We may have and had a small scouting department, but not many teams build as well through the draft as the Bengals have. At the end of the day, talent has rarely been the problem, it falls on coaching. We had a few good years with good coordinators and position guys. We lost them and didn't replace with as high a caliber, and got back into losing.

The Bengals do probably draft better than average, most of the time.

But, since Mike Brown basically refuses to partake in free agency in any meaningful way and has just a so-so player re-sign record, the team needs to draft better than anyone and do so continuously if they want to win consistently. 

And, to your point, the Bengals have not hired a top notch coach during Mike Brown's entire reign over the team. I don't expect Marvin's replacement to be one either.

(11-25-2017, 03:08 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I agree to some extent but it's also important to know the players' worth ethic in practices, how well they interview with the scouts, and various other things that you just can't learn from the internet.

It definitely has become easier, but a decent size scouting department is still important, if for no other reason than to be comprehensive and up-to-date (I know the internet is up-to-date, but it doesn't include everything, plus you need scouts to keep track of everything on the internet).

That's why there is 3 all star games. The Combine, and prodays. Remember every teams sends coaches to not just thr Bengals. Lol the real difference I've seen between large and small departments is how many guys are at each prodays while the Bengals will send 2 other teams will have 4 or 5.

To me it's more important how good your scouts are not how many. Quality over Quantity.

(11-25-2017, 01:48 AM)Synric Wrote: Do we know they low balled Zeilter? 

There's conflicting stories from the same source. Which is it did they offer him 5.5 or were they letting free agency determine his value? 

I'm going with the latter since it's the same strategy they used with Marvin Jones, Michael Johnson, and Jonathan Joesph.

Edit: Also like to add all three of the players I mentioned above also received competitive offers from the Bengals similar to the ones they signed with other teams....and then they straight up way low balled a pro bowl caliber former first round pick? I don't buy it one second.

Except the Bengals value WR's and CB's. They don't value Guards. It says that right on Bengals.com. See below.

Lapham said they offered him $5.5 million a year. Then they didn't offer him a contract once he hit free agency. They basically told him to go test the market and come back if you don't find what you're looking for. That's the stuff I read.

But here you go: Report: Bengals did not attempt to bring back Kevin Zeitler

No offer was submitted from the Bengals to even attempt to retain former first round draft pick Kevin Zeitler.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/3/10/14878494/report-bengals-did-not-attempt-to-bring-back-kevin-zeitler

Bengals.com’s Geoff Hobson shared this bit of unfortunate news regarding Zeitler’s departure:

Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

(11-25-2017, 10:36 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: No, what is stupid is letting Bodine and Hopkins stay out there essentially having been handed the job and not ever trying the likes of TJ Johnson, Westerman, or Redmond.  Ten million would have also been stupid to pay Zeitler, who may have been the most overrated Bengal in a long time.  

No one seems capable of understanding but they sucked last year WITH THOSE GUYS.  The problem lies in the middle of the line and with the coaching scheme.  Whit will not be the first player to beat Father Time, but I hated to see him go regardless.  

The play at LT is an issue, but it isn't THE issue.  Run blocking and scheme.  That's it.  

Yeah...the we were bad WITH those guys last year excuse doesn't fly because they were our 2 best lineman. You let them go and you get worse...and 2 quality players more away.

Zeitler may not be great for the Browns...but in our system he was good.

The Steelers paid DeCastro $10 million. They still managed to:

Franchise Bell
Extend Brown
Extend Tuitt
Extennd Villaneuva
Sign Haden

WITH LESS CAP SPACE THAN US.

Paying a Guard $10 million this year is the equivalent of paying them about $7.5 million a year in 2012 as the cap rises by about $10 million a year.

(11-25-2017, 01:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Except the Bengals value WR's and CB's. They don't value Guards. It says that right on Bengals.com. See below.

Lapham said they offered him $5.5 million a year. Then they didn't offer him a contract once he hit free agency. They basically told him to go test the market and come back if you don't find what you're looking for. That's the stuff I read.

But here you go: Report: Bengals did not attempt to bring back Kevin Zeitler

No offer was submitted from the Bengals to even attempt to retain former first round draft pick Kevin Zeitler.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/3/10/14878494/report-bengals-did-not-attempt-to-bring-back-kevin-zeitler

Bengals.com’s Geoff Hobson shared this bit of unfortunate news regarding Zeitler’s departure:

Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

Bobbie Williams made top dollar as a guard for the Bengals. Clint Boiling signed a contract that was judt under the top guys.

Which is it did they only offer him 5.5, they made no offer, or did they say he if you don't go and get paid top guard in the league money come back to Cincy for 9.5ish?

You say they didn't offer him after free agency hit but he signed the first day after thr one week period where teams can talk to players.

Sounds to me like during that week the Browns were like here's 13 million and the Bengals said hahaha pfft.



You posted three different conflicting reports.

(11-25-2017, 01:49 PM)Synric Wrote: Bobbie Williams made top dollar as a guard for the Bengals. Clint Boiling signed a contract that was judt under the top guys.

Which is it did they only offer him 5.5, they made no offer, or did they say he if you don't go and get paid top guard in the league money come back to Cincy for 9.5ish?

You say they didn't offer him after free agency hit but he signed the first day after thr one week period where teams can talk to players.

Sounds to me like during that week the Browns were like here's 13 million and the Bengals said hahaha pfft.



You posted three different conflicting reports.

This was before Zeitler hit free agency:

“I don’t see it, I mean cause Kevin Zeitler turned down good money, turned down an offer that was something like $5.5 million per year average. But, you know, when you look at it, (Kelechi) Osemele got like $12 million bucks a year from the Oakland Raiders last year, as a guard. So Zeitler’s like, hmm. Osemele made the Pro Bowl team, Zeitler is second team. So Kevin Zeitler is thinking, I’ve gotta be eight, nine, 10, seven (million) worst case scenario. And not just Kevin, Kevin and his agents. But I don’t see the Bengals paying that kind of dollars to a guard when they have other guys they feel they can plug in and play,” Lapham said.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Then once he was a free agent:

And, they don't pay guards big money. Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

You and your assertion that the Bengals are willing to pay top money to Guards...Hobson directly states on Bengals.com that they won't: "but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money."

(11-25-2017, 01:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This was before Zeitler hit free agency:


“I don’t see it, I mean cause Kevin Zeitler turned down good money, turned down an offer that was something like $5.5 million per year average. But, you know, when you look at it, (Kelechi) Osemele got like $12 million bucks a year from the Oakland Raiders last year, as a guard. So Zeitler’s like, hmm. Osemele made the Pro Bowl team, Zeitler is second team. So Kevin Zeitler is thinking, I’ve gotta be eight, nine, 10, seven (million) worst case scenario. And not just Kevin, Kevin and his agents. But I don’t see the Bengals paying that kind of dollars to a guard when they have other guys they feel they can plug in and play,” Lapham said.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Then once he was a free agent:

And, they don't pay guards big money. Zeitler is at the top of his game. He was rated the best guard on the market after not missing a snap in 2017. That translated to $12 million per year, but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

I get what your saying they didn't offer him top dollar why would would they?

How I take it is if no one offered him over 10 mil the Bengals would have likely made a competitive offer because they didn't believe he should be the highest paid guard in the NFL.


I dont believe for one second they offered him less money than Clint Boiling.

Edit: After reading the quote by Lapham it really sounds like he was pulling number out of his ass. Something like 5.5mil why can't I make 9 8 7 mil a year. Lol.

(11-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Synric Wrote: I get what your saying they didn't offer him top dollar why would would they?

How I take it is if no one offered him over 10 mil the Bengals would have likely made a competitive offer because they didn't believe he should be the highest paid guard in the NFL.


I dont believe for one second they offered him less money than Clint Boiling.

Edit: After reading the quote by Lapham it really sounds like he was pulling number out of his ass. Something like 5.5mil why can't I make 9 8 7 mil a year. Lol.

How do you respond to the quote on Bengals.com by Hobson that clearly states the Bengals don't believe Guards warrant top money?

"but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

(11-25-2017, 03:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How do you respond to the quote on Bengals.com by Hobson that clearly states the Bengals don't believe Guards warrant top money?

"but the Bengals don't believe guards win enough games on their own to warrant top of the market money. The Bengals didn't offer a contract but told his agent, "If you don't get what you want, come back."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Facelift/6f86968a-e26b-4fa0-95c3-75c043ecf393

That Hobspin like usual is full of shit considering the Bengals made Bobbie Williams one of the highest paid guards in football at the time...

Clint Boling also made just under what the top guards in football were making...Boling is good but no way was he going to make Marshall Yonda money.



Now you tell me Kevin Zeilter is good but should he be the highest paid guard in the NFL?


Zeitler is making more money than what the Steelers offered Bell...

(11-25-2017, 04:03 PM)Synric Wrote: That Hobspin like usual is full of shit considering the Bengals made Bobbie Williams one of the highest paid guards in football at the time...

Clint Boling also made just under what the top guards in football were making...Boling is good but no way was he going to make Marshall Yonda money.



Now you tell me Kevin Zeilter is good but should he be the highest paid guard in the NFL?


Zeitler is making more money than what the Steelers offered Bell...

You're obviously either not comprehending this or choosing not to. The fact that you think Hobson just makes up negative articles on Bengals.com and they're not accurate is beyond me.

But hey...you may be the only Mike Brown fan on the board too! He needs fans! Yay Mike Browns wallet! Zeitler and Whitworth were overpaid! Let them go and don't spend the money!!!

Too bad the result was a historically bad offensive line.

(11-25-2017, 07:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You're obviously either not comprehending this or choosing not to. The fact that you think Hobson just makes up negative articles on Bengals.com and they're not accurate is beyond me.

But hey...you may be the only Mike Brown fan on the board too! He needs fans! Yay Mike Browns wallet! Zeitler and Whitworth were overpaid! Let them go and don't spend the money!!!

Too bad the result was a historically bad offensive line.

Was Bobbie Williams not one of the top paid guards in football? Did Clint Boiling not receive a very nice contract for a Guard at that time?


But you didn't answer my question and I did yours. Should Kevin Zeilter be the highest paid guard in NFL HISTORY? Should he be making more money than Le'veon Bell offer in the same contract year?

The Bengals could turn around and sign Bell for 15 mil a year only 2 mil more than what Zeitler is getting and they would get one of thr best players in football...not at that position in ALL of football. 

Can you say Zeitler should be making close to what Bell and you know AJ Green make (14mil a year?) With a straight face? Lolol