(11-30-2017, 11:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Which one was he missing? 

We were 23rd in YPA in the rush game, so he didn't have a good rushing game. Green was his only elite WR.

Dak at 9? Newton at 12? lolololol

But, Dalton around the middle of the pack makes sense. He's not really throwing guys open and has missed throws you need your quarterback to make.

Sure, one can blame OC and everything else on offense, but Dalton simply hasn't been amazing this year. He's left a lot of throws on the field this year. It feels like 2011-2012 all over again.

(11-30-2017, 11:30 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: We were 23rd in YPA in the rush game, so he didn't have a good rushing game. Green was his only elite WR.

Sure they had a good rushing game. Gio and Jeremy had over 1500 yards at over 4.0 YPC and 13 TDs. Andy's 57 attempts at 2.5 YPC hurt the overall rushing numbers. We were 4th in TDs and 13th in total rushing yards. Take Andy's attempts away and we are top 1/2 of the league in YPA. MLJ and Sanu are elite 2-3 WRs and Eifert was an elite TE. Gio is an elite option out of the backfield.

(11-30-2017, 11:30 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: We were 23rd in YPA in the rush game, so he didn't have a good rushing game. Green was his only elite WR.

Most teams don’t have any elite WR’s.

(11-30-2017, 11:07 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He didn't even have all 3 and he was a MVP candidate in 2015. To say he would crack the top 10 if he had all 3 is a severe understatement.

Sanu, Green, Marvin Jones, and a healthy (Whaaaat?!?) Tyler Eifert is a pretty fine receiving core.

QBR is garbage. He plays behind one of the worst offensive lines, with only one weapon (and a possible emerging weapon (Mixon))

(11-30-2017, 11:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Most teams don’t have any elite WR’s.

But many teams have more complete receiving cores. I think many analysts could develope a top 10 and say otherwise.

Pittsburgh
New England
Green Bay
Houston
Giants
Miami
Minnesota
Tampa Bay
Jacksonville
Atlanta
LA Chargers


Off top of my head, either have an elite receiver or a better receiving core than us.

(11-30-2017, 11:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure they had a good rushing game. Gio and Jeremy had over 1500 yards at over 4.0 YPC and 13 TDs. Andy's 57 attempts at 2.5 YPC hurt the overall rushing numbers. We were 4th in TDs and 13th in total rushing yards. Take Andy's attempts away and we are top 1/2 of the league in YPA. MLJ and Sanu are elite 2-3 WRs and Eifert was an elite TE. Gio is an elite option out of the backfield.

Seems you removed Andy's rush numbers to help the YPC, but left in his 142 yards and 3 TDs for some reason.

Take away all of Andy's rush stats and we were 18th in yardage, tied for 10th in TDs and YPC would be somewhere between 16th and 19th with a glut of teams averaging 4.0 YPC. 

Of course, most QB's run the ball at least 30-40 times every year, and very few of them are helping their team's YPC, so it's kinda silly to remove it for one team and judge it against the rest. But I guess that's where we're at.

Our 2015 run game was average at best. Not many will dispute that.

(11-30-2017, 11:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure they had a good rushing game. Gio and Jeremy had over 1500 yards at over 4.0 YPC and 13 TDs. Andy's 57 attempts at 2.5 YPC hurt the overall rushing numbers. We were 4th in TDs and 13th in total rushing yards. Take Andy's attempts away and we are top 1/2 of the league in YPA. MLJ and Sanu are elite 2-3 WRs and Eifert was an elite TE. Gio is an elite option out of the backfield.

Marvin Jones has never been an elite #2. He's never even had a 1k yard year when he's been trying to be the #1 at Detroit. Sanu was good, but to have his name under any kind of "elite" status is funny. See Shakes post about the run game.

(12-01-2017, 02:37 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Seems you removed Andy's rush numbers to help the YPC, but left in his 142 yards and 3 TDs for some reason.

Take away all of Andy's rush stats and we were 18th in yardage, tied for 10th in TDs and YPC would be somewhere between 16th and 19th with a glut of teams averaging 4.0 YPC. 

Of course, most QB's run the ball at least 30-40 times every year, and very few of them are helping their team's YPC, so it's kinda silly to remove it for one team and judge it against the rest. But I guess that's where we're at.

Our 2015 run game was average at best. Not many will dispute that.

Below is a list of NFL QBs that rushed a minimum of 50 times in 2015, with their YPA:

Bortles 6.0
Winston 3.9
Dalton 2.5
Rodgers 5.9
Fitzpatrick 4.5
Smith 5.9
Taylor 5.5
Newton 4.8

Now which one do you think most negatively affected their team YPA?

So it's "kind of silly" to not take Andy's stats into consideration. But I guess that's where we're at.

So all "I can post stats too" aside, would you say YES or NO when asked if Andy had a consistent Running Game in 2015 as the post stated?




So we can consider his running can in 2015 "consistent" as the post stated?

 

(12-01-2017, 08:27 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Marvin Jones has never been an elite #2. He's never even had a 1k yard year when he's been trying to be the #1 at Detroit. Sanu was good, but to have his name under any kind of "elite" status is funny. See Shakes post about the run game.

Perhaps we should ask someone besides the unbiased Brownshoe if they would consider Green, Jones, Sanu, Eifert, and Gio an elite receiving corps.

See bfine's reply to Shake's post about the running game and you can feel free to answer the question with YES or NO if you choose.

(12-01-2017, 10:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps we should ask someone besides the unbiased Brownshoe if they would consider Green, Jones, Sanu, Eifert, and Gio an elite receiving corps.

See bfine's reply to Shake's post about the running game and you can feel free to answer the question with YES or NO if you choose.

If not, they were damn close to it.  Green is one of the best in the league, Jones had a career year, Sanu....meh, Eifert's one lone healthy season, and Gio had a very nice year as well.


Just as important though, the line was MUCH better in 2015 than its current iteration.

(12-01-2017, 10:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Below is a list of NFL QBs that rushed a minimum of 50 times in 2015, with their YPA:

Bortles 6.0
Winston 3.9
Dalton 2.5
Rodgers 5.9
Fitzpatrick 4.5
Smith 5.9
Taylor 5.5
Newton 4.8

Now which one do you think most negatively affected their team YPA?

So it's "kind of silly" to not take Andy's stats into consideration. But I guess that's where we're at.

So all "I can post stats too" aside, would you say YES or NO when asked if Andy had a consistent Running Game in 2015 as the post stated?




So we can consider his running can in 2015 "consistent" as the post stated?

 

I say very few QB's helped their team's YPC and you respond by rattling off 7 names for a 32 team league. Thanks for proving my point. 

If consistent also means average-at-best, yeah lets roll with it. 

Since the narrative people want to use is "Andy needs an outstanding supporting cast to produce at a high level", I'd like to just once see a list of QB's that had amazing MVP caliber seasons whilst surrounded by crap. Should be an easy list to make, seeing how often this subject comes up.

(12-01-2017, 10:23 AM)Wyche Wrote: If not, they were damn close to it.  Green is one of the best in the league, Jones had a career year, Sanu....meh, Eifert's one lone healthy season, and Gio had a very nice year as well.


Just as important though, the line was MUCH better in 2015 than its current iteration.

The line was better than now, but not some elite unit. I think they got exposed a bit when they had to block a little longer for Mac.

Not to mention finishing 23rd in YPC.  Receivers were great that year though. Not exactly 1999 Rams or Fitz/Boldin, but still great.

(12-01-2017, 11:28 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The line was better than now, but not some elite unit. I think they got exposed a bit when they had to block a little longer for Mac.

Not to mention finishing 23rd in YPC. Receivers were great that year though. Not exactly 1999 Rams or Fitz/Boldin, but still great.

Oh, I agree, but they were a lot better than they are now.  No question.

(12-01-2017, 11:20 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1) I say very few QB's helped their team's YPC and you respond by rattling off 7 names for a 32 team league. Thanks for proving my point. 

2) If consistent also means average-at-best, yeah lets roll with it. 

3) Since the narrative people want to use is "Andy needs an outstanding supporting cast to produce at a high level", I'd like to just once see a list of QB's that had amazing MVP caliber seasons whilst surrounded by crap. Should be an easy list to make, seeing how often this subject comes up.

1) I didn't "rattle off" anything, I simply listed QBs that had a minimum of 50 rushing attempts. As you can see Andy was by far the most hurtful to his team's YPC. A point was proven; however, I'm just not sure it was one you were attempting to make. But I'll give you credit for bringing other QB's rushing statics into the equation. It was helpful; thanks.

2)  I'll take this as you saying yes in long form. So we agree.

3). It should be equally as easy to list years that Andy has had an outstanding (hell, let's roll with above average) season without great receivers, a good line, and a consistent Running Game. As that would disprove the "narrative" more than any list I could provide of other QBs. But if I were inclined to provide such a list; it would be easy as you suggest. I'd just start with Kirk Cousins from this year that is currently 2nd in passing yards and 5th in passer rating with none of the 3 requirements

(11-30-2017, 10:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Um...no.

Dalton: 92.5 passer rating, 18 TDs, 8 INTs
Newton: 81.1 passer rating, 14 TDs, 11 INTs

By game (arranged by passer rating):

Andy:
146.0 (4 TDs - 0 INTs)
124.1 (2 TDs - 0 INTs)
117.3 (3 TDs - 0 INTs)
111.3 (2 TDs - 0 INTs)
108.8 (2 TDs - 0 INTs)
100.3 (2 TDs - 0 INTs)
79.9 (0 TDs - 0 INTs)
77.1 (1 TDs - 2 INTs) - 328 yards and 2 INTs off of AJ's hands)
76.4 (0 TDs - 0 INTs)
63.2 (2 TDs - 2 INTs)
28.4 (0 TDs - 4 INTs)

Cam:
141.8 (3 TDs - 0 INTs)
130.8 (3 TDs - 1 INTs)
120.4 (4 TDs - 0 INTs)
87.2 (2 TDs - 1 INT)
83.9 (0 TDs - 0 INTs)
71.0 (0 TDs - 0 INTs)
66.4 (1 TD - 1 INT)
59.8 (0 TD - 0 INT)
54.9 (0 TD - 2 INT)
48.5 (1 TD - 3 INTs)
43.7 (0 TD - 3 INTs)

I mean, it's not even close.

- Cam has 6 games with a 71.0 rating or worse. Dalton has 2.
- Cam has 5 games without a passing TD. Dalton has 3.
- Cam has 6 games with an INT. Dalton has 3.
- Dalton has 6 games with a 100+ rating. Cam has 3.
- Dalton has 7 games with multiple TD passes. Cam has 4.

Yes, Cam brings the rushing ability to the table, but suggesting Cam and Andy have been the same this year as far as passing or inconsistency is total BS.

Good stuff Shake and this is behind a better line than Dalton has.

Always thought Cam was overrated but he is playing worse than Dalton this season.

(12-01-2017, 12:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1) I didn't "rattle off" anything, I simply listed QBs that had a minimum of 50 rushing attempts. As you can see Andy was by far the most hurtful to his team's YPC. A point was proven; however, I'm just not sure it was one you were attempting to make. But I'll give you credit for bringing other QB's rushing statics into the equation. It was helpful; thanks.

2)  I'll take this as you saying yes in long form. So we agree.

3). It should be equally as easy to list years that Andy has had an outstanding (hell, let's roll with above average) season without great receivers, a good line, and a consistent Running Game. As that would disprove the "narrative" more than any list I could provide of other QBs. But if I were inclined to provide such a list; it would be easy as you suggest. I'd just start with Kirk Cousins from this year that is currently 2nd in passing yards and 5th in passer rating with none of the 3 requirements

lol Cousins has arguably just as good a reviving core now as Dalton did in 2015, and he has a similar YPA in his run game as Dalton did in 2015...

(12-01-2017, 03:49 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: lol Cousins has arguably just as good a reviving core now as Dalton did in 2015,

Who the hell would argue that?

(12-01-2017, 11:28 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The line was better than now, but not some elite unit. I think they got exposed a bit when they had to block a little longer for Mac.

Not to mention finishing 23rd in YPC.  Receivers were great that year though. Not exactly 1999 Rams or Fitz/Boldin, but still great.

The line was better simply because there is no comparison between Whit/Zeitler and Ogbuehi/Hopkins. One is solid and the other has no business on an NFL field. But to be honest Andy has historically made the line look better at pass protection than it actually was via the extremely quick release.