Generally when teams can't run the ball, they draft Centers and Guards high...Tackles too.

The Bengals blame the RB and keep drafting more and don't address Center or Guard!

Having 3 2nd Round RB's on a roster drafted within the past 5 years is pretty crazy and a waste of resources.

I don't have an issue per say with drafting RBs but if you are going to do that why not A.) Resign a good player you drafted at guard A Hall of Fame LT B.) Why not sign a free agent from another team to improve another position on the line.

(12-03-2017, 09:43 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I don't have an issue per say with drafting RBs but if you are going to do that why not A.) Resign a good player you drafted at guard A Hall of Fame LT B.) Why not sign a free agent from another team to improve another position on the line.

Precisely.

My problem with it is that this team doesn't use free agency very much...so draft picks are at a premium. Instead of identifying Center as an issue with the running game...they throw picks at RB's.

I'm not disappointed with Mixon or Bernard...just without a Center...it's hard to run.

(12-03-2017, 09:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Precisely.

My problem with it is that this team doesn't use free agency very much...so draft picks are at a premium. Instead of identifying Center as an issue with the running game...they throw picks at RB's.

I'm not disappointed with Mixon or Bernard...just without a Center...it's hard to run.

It's a stupid strategy and even the biggest homers knows this.

How many great teams are there in the last 5 years?

The problem is they had to at least have some doubts about one of the tackles they drafted.

Keeping Whit would have made too much sense.

Letting Z walk might be a little bit more understandable for other teams.

Not here though. This team needs to hang on to O-Line performers when they have them.

Why are you upset that they value the position?

(12-03-2017, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How many great teams are there in the last 5 years?

Hmm, well the NFL seems to have the usual teams that are vying for it all year in and year out along with some surprising one-year-woner types...so let's take the easy route and look at the final 4 teams per year and see if I can explain what went right and which are one-year-wonders.

2017 (projected)
1. Patriots
2. Eagles (Wentz looks legit, franchise that took big risks and is currently reaping the rewards)
3. Steelers
4. Vikings (built team in the trenches and is getting miracle production from a 3rd string undrafted QB)

2016
1. Patriots
2. Falcons (career year for Matt Ryan, MVP)
3. Steelers
4. Packers

2015
1. Broncos (championship defense carries washed-up HOF QB)
2. Panthers (career year for Cam Newton, MVP)
3. Patriots
4. Cardinals (career year for Carson Palmer)

2014
1. Patriots
2. Seahawks
3. Packers
4. Colts (career year for Andrew Luck)

2013
1. Seahawks
2. Broncos
3. Patriots
4. 49ers (were quite good for 3 unsustainable years, rather than 1 like many teams on here)

2012
1. Ravens (decent team, Flacco goes on a post-season MVP-caliber tear)
2. 49ers
3. Patriots
4. Falcons (I completely forgot they were this good in 2012)

2011
1. Giants (team unreasonably good at making post-season, Patriot-killing runs or having 6-win seasons)
2. Patriots
3. Ravens
4. 49ers


So, I probably have simplified things too much, but I see a lot of the same old teams vying for the SB along with the yearly "Our QB caught fire and is having his best year ever and we're taking it as far as we can before he comes crashing down and is replaced by net year's QB catching fire for one year."

Every year you get your HOF QBs competing with non-HOF QBs who are playing like HOFers for one year.  2015 Dalton had a chance to make that cut, but injuries happen.

(12-03-2017, 10:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why are you upset that they value the position?

Because the issue is the offensive line not the RB's. They need to start investing in offensive line.

They failed to identify the real issue.

(12-04-2017, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Because the issue is the offensive line not the RB's. They need to start investing in offensive line.

They failed to identify the real issue.

I'm not so sure that they didn't identify the issue ? I mean hell dozens of posters on here knew it was an issue.

I think it's more that Mike Brown refused to pay money to fix the issue. He said you guys drafted this O-line and they're going to play even if they suck, and the bonus for me is it doesn't cost much.

(12-04-2017, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Because the issue is the offensive line not the RB's. They need to start investing in offensive line.

They failed to identify the real issue.

Didn’t they spend first and second round picks on tackles ? Plus a first on a guard.

They seem to invest in it .... just had some misses. And who know of one of those guys fisher/ogbuehi can be a player. I think it’s pretty much a done deal they are taking a lineman this year. Probably multiple.

(12-03-2017, 09:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Precisely.

My problem with it is that this team doesn't use free agency very much...so draft picks are at a premium. Instead of identifying Center as an issue with the running game...they throw picks at RB's.

I'm not disappointed with Mixon or Bernard...just without a Center...it's hard to run.

Which free agent offensive linemen do you think they should target this offseason?

(12-04-2017, 12:45 AM)Synric Wrote: Which free agent offensive linemen do you think they should target this offseason?

They should probably evaluate and put potential price tags on all of the potential starters.  The problem was probably not that they had no idea that if Whit and Zeitler left it would be a problem - the problem was that they had no backup plan in the event that other teams threw them a big wad of dough.  How hard is it to make a list and attach a fair hypothetical pricetag to your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options in the event that things don't work out exactly as planned?

Back to the OP, nobody drafts RBs and neglects the o-line, because it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.  GB runs a WR at RB.  Other teams with good lines seem to find random 5th round - UDFA guys who do well quite regularly.  It boils down to refusing to draft for need, failure to have a comprehensive plan for the roster, and/or overvaluing certain positions.  

(12-04-2017, 02:16 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: They should probably evaluate and put potential price tags on all of the potential starters.  The problem was probably not that they had no idea that if Whit and Zeitler left it would be a problem - the problem was that they had no backup plan in the event that other teams threw them a big wad of dough.  How hard is it to make a list and attach a fair hypothetical pricetag to your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options in the event that things don't work out exactly as planned?

Back to the OP, nobody drafts RBs and neglects the o-line, because it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.  GB runs a WR at RB.  Other teams with good lines seem to find random 5th round - UDFA guys who do well quite regularly.  It boils down to refusing to draft for need, failure to have a comprehensive plan for the roster, and/or overvaluing certain positions.  

Which would be who?

(12-03-2017, 09:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Generally when teams can't run the ball, they draft Centers and Guards high...Tackles too.

The Bengals blame the RB and keep drafting more and don't address Center or Guard!  

Having 3 2nd Round RB's on a roster drafted within the past 5 years is pretty crazy and a waste of resources.

Two words explains all: Mike Brown

The problem could not possibly be the oft injured OT they drafted in the first round or the under powered OC the team traded up to get. No, those could not possibly be the problem in Mikey Brown's little brain, as that would mean Mikey made a mistake.

(12-04-2017, 02:38 AM)Synric Wrote: Which would be who?

Welp, this website lists all free agents by position and what they have earned in the past:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/offensive-line/

I'm sure that if someone had a lot of time on their hands/resources available/diligence to the process, that they could find out who has actually played meaningful snaps on this list.  With more resources, they could probably get a general feel for what quality of play was on display for those snaps.  I don't have the time on my hands nor the resources to go through that process.  I'm not a franchise with a net value of $871 million.  Me throwing out names would be akin to throwing darts at a dartboard.  

What is apparent is that the Bengals do not do their proper due diligence to any sort of similar process.  If they had, there would have been backup plans for the o-line.  Smith was a good pickup, but the holes are still gaping and obvious.  This list shows where free agents from 2017 signed:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2017/offensive-line/

Many teams who signed FA o-linemen on this list currently have better records than the Bengals.  Just a couple of observations in 2020 hindsight:  
John Sullivan, the LA Rams's starting center, could have been had for less money per year than what the Bengals spent on Eric Winston.  The Ravens(better record than the Bengals - blanked them in opener) picked up their starting RT for what looks like reasonable money.  I understand that there are a lot of teams that didn't get good value from signing some of these guys, but that's the risk that you have to take in order to have a possibility of winning big.  

(12-03-2017, 09:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Generally when teams can't run the ball, they draft Centers and Guards high...Tackles too.

The Bengals blame the RB and keep drafting more and don't address Center or Guard!  

Having 3 2nd Round RB's on a roster drafted within the past 5 years is pretty crazy and a waste of resources.

and yet they called letting Corey Dillon go as addition by subtraction... I'm glad he looked like Jimmy Brown as Patriots won Super Bowl, probably the best of all the Patriots Super Bowl teams, Brady AND Dillon. 

Mike Brown always says, " Why should I pay a guard ? "....He said it when he let Max Montoya go.  He said it when he let Steinbach go.  He said it when he let Zeitler go.   Zietler is also not the guard they should have drafted.  I was very angry they did mot draft Decastro rated as one of the best guards in the draft in years.  Bengals took Kirkpatrick and Steelers quickly took DeCastro who still is a monster for Steelers.  Of course Mike Brown wouldn't have paid him either and would now be with another team. 

Yes, the Bengals love to draft running backs about as much as the new Browns love to draft quarterback every year.  You are correct that good teams build their trenches, but don't try to explain that on Bengals draft page in any year as fans always want a running back or wide receiver they saw in college game.  Cincinnati Fans don't value building up the trenches any more than owner Mike Brown.  You are correct that Super Bowl teams have great O Lines.  This idea that a good RB can make up for a bad O Line never works. Plus, if we really believed in great running backs, then why did we get rid of Corey Dillon.  ...I'll add Bengals said losing top young linebacker Spikes was addition by subtraction.....Who the heck taught Bengals coaches and owners math, because it is math that doesn't add up or make any sense. ...So a team that didn't value Corey Dillon has drafted Mixon, Hill, Bernard and don't forget Irons in second round. ....Look, it's like this, when Bengals don't want to pay the money to keep Zeitler or Whitworth or Jones or Sanu or Joseph or Spikes or Dillon or Parrish or Bergey they ALWAYS call their cheapness ADDITION BY SUBTRACTION. I will say while Paul Brown was alive he went out and got good O Lines in the 1970s and 1980's. I give Pro Bowl Tackle Forrest Gregg of Vince Lombardi Packers much credit for the offensive linemen brought in during the 1980's and who better to coach up Pro Bowl Munoz than Pro Bowl Gregg. Gregg built a great O Line for us in the 1980's. True Bengal Fans understand that.

Good point on us drafting running backs and it leads to a coaching story by Earl Bruce. He said he brought in a class at Ohio State that was rated as the #1 recruited class in the USA and then Ohio State had a lousy year, Bruce said he asked ex head coach Woody Hayes what went wrong. Woody told him he recruited the top finesse players but he didn't get enough big boys in the trenches and said he didn't bring in any of these big Ohio farm boys that are up working the farm way before city boys are out of bed and are great in the trenches. Earl Bruce said he learned his lesson on recruiting and going for all finesse players.....That is a lesson Bengals owners, coaches and fans still need to learn. They think you load up on just finesse players and you do not, not if you want to win. Mike Brown who doesn't know why he should pay guards or centers simply doesn't know football. Mike Brown not only didn't keep top guards, but when he had a chance to draft the best guard in years in draft in years in DeCastro Mike Brown went cornerback. When Mike Brown knew he needed O Line in 2017 draft he drafted WR Malone even though he took WR Ross already and took kicker Elliott who would never start for Bengals. Mike refused to draft O Linemen even in 2017 draft, he just doesn't see a need for O Linemen. Woody Hayes, Forrest Gregg and Paul Brown would tell Mike he can't win without O Linemen.

I can see Ross and Mixon maybe, but when they took Malone and Elliott they should have been getting O Linemen in here. It was a STUPID DRAFT.

Get your scat back, get your power back, power back is a bust, get a new power back.

I don't think this is necessarily a "root" of any problem we have. You could make an argument that Gio was a luxury pick, since even at the height of his career he only got ~10 to 15 touches per game (he's close to 5 per game right now). But if you view him as less of a RB and more of a play maker in the same vein as a slot receiver, it makes more sense.

It'll be fine. This past draft was bad for Oline talent. Hopefully, next year will be better.

(12-04-2017, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Because the issue is the offensive line not the RB's. They need to start investing in offensive line.

They failed to identify the real issue.

This is a 100% FALSE Narrative.

Let's be honest here, the O-line needs a major makeover from it's most recent makeover. That's not a secret secret and no one who watches the Bengals should argue that. But, Jeremy Hill, who was drafted to be an AFC North type main back, ended up being a disaster after one strong (just over) 1/2 rookie season and Bernard is not going to be a bell cow. He just isn't. Play maker, yes. Main back NO. Even with a strong O-Line Hill played his own part of "the real issue" by stinking it up for the last several seasons. BJGE wasn't particularly dynamic in the play-making department, and neither was Benson before him. Both of those guys made Rudi Johnson (a plodder himself) look like Eric Dickerson by comparison.

The problems in the run game were not JUST O-line problems. They corrected the RB issue with the drafting of Mixon. Mistake corrected.

Back to the "We don't draft O-line high gripe". The Bengals DID and HAVE drafted O-Line high. The last 2 are serious messes. The Bengals missed on that. The one before them, Zeitler, was a hit, but he got a huge payday with $60MILLION from the Browns. Do you know what types of teams give $60million to guards? Dumbass teams like the Browns. The Bengals have shown to give big paydays to their own players along the line... ESPECIALLY offensive linemen. In the Marvin era: Levi Jones, Whitworth was paid and extended several times, and Willie Anderson.

The idea that the Bengals don't draft linemen or don't pay them is sour grapes from some picks that didn't work out. They will correct it, just like they did with RB.

(12-04-2017, 12:37 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Didn’t they spend first and second round picks on tackles ?  Plus a first on a guard.  

They seem to invest in it ....  just had some misses.     And who know of one of those guys fisher/ogbuehi can be a player.   I think it’s pretty much a done deal they are taking a lineman this year.   Probably multiple.

Yeah...and they allowed the Guard to leave in free agency.

Also, when was the last time they invested highly in a Center?