(12-05-2017, 03:26 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You know what's even easier to root for? Players that can win a game in the clutch. 

Dalton's a great guy. Lovely. Maybe he should retire and help the homeless or sick kids full time. It would be a much better use of his talents. 

Did you know that Andy Dalton has 15 4th quarter comebacks? That's one less than Troy Aikmen.

He ranks 13th among all quarterbacks in the NFL.
8 of those quarterbacks were drafted in the 2000-2005 range.
Russell Wilson is the ONLY player drafted in the 2010's that has a higher number of comebacks, or the same number.

Andy Dalton has more 4th quarter comebacks than: Cam Newton. Aaron Rodgers. Andrew Luck. Kirk Cousins.

Did you know that Andy Dalton also has 18 game winning drives?
Ranking him 14th in the NFL, tied with Andrew Luck.
One less than Aaron Rodgers.
Again, 8 players drafted from 2000-2005 are above him.
Only two players drafted since 2000 are in the same bracket. Wilson and Luck.

So, should everyone lower than Dalton do the same thing? Should Luck do the same thing?

Or is "clutch" a different thing? Playoff wins?
Because since 2009, only 8 quarterbacks drafted have won a playoff game.

I'm just curious as to what "clutch" means to you

(12-07-2017, 04:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Did you know that Andy Dalton has 15 4th quarter comebacks? That's one less than Troy Aikmen.

He ranks 13th among all quarterbacks in the NFL.
8 of those quarterbacks were drafted in the 2000-2005 range.
Russell Wilson is the ONLY player drafted in the 2010's that has a higher number of comebacks, or the same number.

Andy Dalton has more 4th quarter comebacks than: Cam Newton. Aaron Rodgers. Andrew Luck. Kirk Cousins.

Did you know that Andy Dalton also has 18 game winning drives?
Ranking him 14th in the NFL, tied with Andrew Luck.
One less than Aaron Rodgers.
Again, 8 players drafted from 2000-2005 are above him.
Only two players drafted since 2000 are in the same bracket. Wilson and Luck.

So, should everyone lower than Dalton do the same thing? Should Luck do the same thing?

Or is "clutch" a different thing? Playoff wins?
Because since 2009, only 8 quarterbacks drafted have won a playoff game.

I'm just curious as to what "clutch" means to you

damn you Dalton for all those dropped perfectly placed passes.. and untimely penalties that you committed in that last game.

Thank you for taking the team on your back and being a class act despite the undeserved hate.

(12-07-2017, 04:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many drops were there on the last offensive possession?

how many seconds did Dalton have on the last offensive possession?

sometimes its like you guys are watching different games

Here's a little refresher.  Guess he's not clutch either?  Just excuses for sucking huh??

(12-07-2017, 04:14 PM)Synric Wrote: sack middle pressure.

That's the play he can control, and shouldn't happen. It's the play that keeps him from being mentioned with the top tier guys. 

Andy Dalton = 1st class

(12-07-2017, 04:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That's the whole issue when i say something like "when it matters". It's not that stuff done in the 1st half doesn't matter. Here's an example to illustrate what you said. *What Dalton did (in the first 2 or 3 quarters) doesn't matter in the end because the Bengals lost the game. "When it matters" is what Ben did; lead the team to the winning score. 

It's easy to understand, really. 

Dude....you're agreeing with a cat that called a dude that played 1 partial season and is out of the league a "winner". C'mon faulk...you're better than that.

(12-05-2017, 04:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Sorry, i'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just sick and ***** tired of all the excuses as to why a Bengals player or coach couldn't do this or that. 

please tell me what this thread has to do with excuses ?  people/media over blow the hatred in the NFL.. Dalton showed that not to be true.. that is what this thread is about.. you can have your opinion, even if it is wrong on his ability but not about this thread... :paul:

(12-07-2017, 04:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Did you know that Andy Dalton has 15 4th quarter comebacks? That's one less than Troy Aikmen.

He ranks 13th among all quarterbacks in the NFL.
8 of those quarterbacks were drafted in the 2000-2005 range.
Russell Wilson is the ONLY player drafted in the 2010's that has a higher number of comebacks, or the same number.

Andy Dalton has more 4th quarter comebacks than: Cam Newton. Aaron Rodgers. Andrew Luck. Kirk Cousins.

Did you know that Andy Dalton also has 18 game winning drives?
Ranking him 14th in the NFL, tied with Andrew Luck.
One less than Aaron Rodgers.
Again, 8 players drafted from 2000-2005 are above him.
Only two players drafted since 2000 are in the same bracket. Wilson and Luck.

So, should everyone lower than Dalton do the same thing? Should Luck do the same thing?

Or is "clutch" a different thing? Playoff wins?
Because since 2009, only 8 quarterbacks drafted have won a playoff game.

I'm just curious as to what "clutch" means to you

Clutch means, when you get the ball at the end of the game, you drive your team to points and, more than not, wins. 

He's had 1 real 4th quarter GWD in the last season +. The Jets in the opener last year. 

I wonder how many times he's had the ball, late in the 4th quarter with a chance to put points on the board and not done it... Pretty sure everyone knows the 2nd half scoring woes of the team. 

Check out his 4th quarter passer rating. 74.4, good for 15th...in the AFC. #20 in the nfl is Alex Smith. He has an 89.1

He had done a good job up to the end of 2015. It will be good to see him with a different coach and a decent line. But i'm not about to keep throwing out excuse after excuse after excuse as to why he's playing the way he is. The really good quarterbacks find a way to get the job done, regardless of their surroundings. It's exactly why and how they are deemed 'elite' or 'very good/top 10'. 

(12-07-2017, 06:28 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: how many seconds did Dalton have on the last offensive possession?

sometimes its like you guys are watching different games

Don't call me "you guys". I'm not one that unfairly criticizes him. 

(12-05-2017, 02:26 AM)WiscoFan Wrote: Football aside, I would just like to note how classy Dalton is. Him staying on the field after another tough loss to pray with the Steelers following the Shazier hit just shows how awesome of a guy he is. Proud to own his jersey.

I also love A.D. as a person.....
& also think he's a top 5-10-ish qb in the NFL...
but....
as an Atheist I don't like to see anyone pray to an invisible god in public.....as it's just pushing the biggest lie ever told....
brainwashing others....especially kids....
we got here via evolution....not creationism...
if ya don't believe me check out a science book...
lies are lies....
truths are backed up w/ facts...

(12-07-2017, 02:15 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm trying to wrap my head around any of those QBs you mentioned having AJ Green to throw to.

I'm trying to wrap my head around Dalton being coached by Bill Belichick, Mike Holmgren, Tony Dungy or Mike McCarthy.

Brady and Manning had tons of weapons. Gronk, Moss, Welker, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edge, Joseph Addai, etc etc.

(12-07-2017, 08:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That's the play he can control, and shouldn't happen. It's the play that keeps him from being mentioned with the top tier guys. 

What was he supposed to do there? The short options had defenders draped on them. You can see him scanning left and right and seeing no one open. It looked like he decided to tuck and run for it, but by then Dupree had him. The Steelers literally rushed 2 there and dropped 9 into coverage...and that was STILL enough. Say Andy blindly chucked it up just to "give us a chance". That ball had a 90% chance of being batted down or picked off. Then we're still right where we are...somehow finding a way to pin this on the offensive MVP of this game. 

The smart move there would be to not pull the trigger and risk an INT in a tie ball game. Unfortunately, our defense was in full meltdown mode, allowing 20 points in one half of football. Dalton did make the play...not his fault AJ Green dropped it. Why are we ripping Andy when he held up his end? If AJ gets criticized, people have a conniption on here, but he holds the most blame for that 3 and out.

Here's the play, btw: https://youtu.be/z1FfOwjlqxU?t=4m20s

(12-07-2017, 09:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Clutch means, when you get the ball at the end of the game, you drive your team to points and, more than not, wins. 

He's had 1 real 4th quarter GWD in the last season +. The Jets in the opener last year. 

I wonder how many times he's had the ball, late in the 4th quarter with a chance to put points on the board and not done it... Pretty sure everyone knows the 2nd half scoring woes of the team. 

Check out his 4th quarter passer rating. 74.4, good for 15th...in the AFC. #20 in the nfl is Alex Smith. He has an 89.1

He had done a good job up to the end of 2015. It will be good to see him with a different coach and a decent line. But i'm not about to keep throwing out excuse after excuse after excuse as to why he's playing the way he is. The really good quarterbacks find a way to get the job done, regardless of their surroundings. It's exactly why and how they are deemed 'elite' or 'very good/top 10'. 

Fair criticism, but I think it's irrelevant to this particular game. Here's the last 3 drives we had, including the only two 4th quarter drives:

Drive 1:

AJ Green drop (the one that the Steelers thought was a fumble)
Gio 13 yard run
Gio 4 yard run
Brandon LaFell drop
Andy chased from pocket, had to throw away
Punt

Drive 2: 
Dalton quick sack (instant pressure)
Penalty on Gio for false start
Brandon LaFell drop
Dalton 16 yard pass to Gio on 3rd and 23 (Steelers dropped everyone into coverage)
Punt

Drive 3:
AJ Green drop 
Gio Bernard 8 yard run
Dalton sacked 
Punt

So we have 3 drops, a penalty, 2 sacks and at least 1 pressure. Seems Dalton wasn't the one killing these drives. I get your frustration, but I think it's misplaced.

(12-07-2017, 11:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm trying to wrap my head around Dalton being coached by Bill Belichick, Mike Holmgren, Tony Dungy or Mike McCarthy.

Brady and Manning had tons of weapons. Gronk, Moss, Welker, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edge, Joseph Addai, etc etc.


What was he supposed to do there? The short options had defenders draped on them. You can see him scanning left and right and seeing no one open. It looked like he decided to tuck and run for it, but by then Dupree had him. The Steelers literally rushed 2 there and dropped 9 into coverage...and that was STILL enough. Say Andy blindly chucked it up just to "give us a chance". That ball had a 90% chance of being batted down or picked off. Then we're still right where we are...somehow finding a way to pin this on the offensive MVP of this game. 

The smart move there would be to not pull the trigger and risk an INT in a tie ball game. Unfortunately, our defense was in full meltdown mode, allowing 20 points in one half of football. Dalton did make the play...not his fault AJ Green dropped it. Why are we ripping Andy when he held up his end? If AJ gets criticized, people have a conniption on here, but he holds the most blame for that 3 and out.

Here's the play, btw: https://youtu.be/z1FfOwjlqxU?t=4m20s


Fair criticism, but I think it's irrelevant to this particular game. Here's the last 3 drives we had, including the only two 4th quarter drives:

Drive 1:

AJ Green drop (the one that the Steelers thought was a fumble)
Gio 13 yard run
Gio 4 yard run
Brandon LaFell drop
Andy chased from pocket, had to throw away
Punt

Drive 2: 
Dalton quick sack (instant pressure)
Penalty on Gio for false start
Brandon LaFell drop
Dalton 16 yard pass to Gio on 3rd and 23 (Steelers dropped everyone into coverage)
Punt

Drive 3:
AJ Green drop 
Gio Bernard 8 yard run
Dalton sacked 
Punt

So we have 3 drops, a penalty, 2 sacks and at least 1 pressure. Seems Dalton wasn't the one killing these drives. I get your frustration, but I think it's misplaced.

One thing you have to understand about my perspective...it's very hard (for anyone) to say what Dalton could have/should have done differently because all we have is what he did. With hindsight and the all 22, it's easy for anyone to point out what he could have done. 

The only thing i can throw out there is, he didn't get it done with what he did. Backing up for a second--speaking specifically about that last sack--can you tell me you're happy with his pocket awareness? That's probably the biggest thing about my "criticism". Wison, Ben, Brady, Brees, Rodgers and even a few newer quarterbacks move around and manipulate the pocket, buying more time for a play to develop. That is what allows them to make a play to keep a drive alive. Unfortunately, Dalton is pretty bad at this. Most times he jets out of the pocket and the first thing out of my mouth is "here comes the throw away". To be fair, the Bengals receivers seem to be equally unable to move around and give him any options. But setting that aside, he simply can't manipulate the pocket for any appreciable amount of time to allow anyone to try and get open.

I don't feel a need to give examples of how i'm not someone that usually bashes him. If someone doesn't know my history regarding him and how i've spent hours crunching numbers and giving examples of how he's a pretty good QB, i'm just like "whatev". 

My bottom line is, I, you, everyone watches game after game of QBs that find a way to keep a play alive or make a throw or tuck it and run in a crucial situation that results in a game won. Dalton just isn't the type of QB who can do that. 

Matty Ryan not very clutch tonight. Three picks...yikes!  

(12-08-2017, 12:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: Matty Ryan not very clutch tonight. Three picks...yikes!  

TD pass in the 4th quarter...

(12-07-2017, 11:59 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: One thing you have to understand about my perspective...it's very hard (for anyone) to say what Dalton could have/should have done differently because all we have is what he did. With hindsight and the all 22, it's easy for anyone to point out what he could have done. 

The only thing i can throw out there is, he didn't get it done with what he did. Backing up for a second--speaking specifically about that last sack--can you tell me you're happy with his pocket awareness? That's probably the biggest thing about my "criticism". Wison, Ben, Brady, Brees, Rodgers and even a few newer quarterbacks move around and manipulate the pocket, buying more time for a play to develop. That is what allows them to make a play to keep a drive alive. Unfortunately, Dalton is pretty bad at this. Most times he jets out of the pocket and the first thing out of my mouth is "here comes the throw away". To be fair, the Bengals receivers seem to be equally unable to move around and give him any options. But setting that aside, he simply can't manipulate the pocket for any appreciable amount of time to allow anyone to try and get open.

I don't feel a need to give examples of how i'm not someone that usually bashes him. If someone doesn't know my history regarding him and how i've spent hours crunching numbers and giving examples of how he's a pretty good QB, i'm just like "whatev". 

My bottom line is, I, you, everyone watches game after game of QBs that find a way to keep a play alive or make a throw or tuck it and run in a crucial situation that results in a game won. Dalton just isn't the type of QB who can do that. 

On that particular sack, yes I think if Dalton goes to his left, he could've bought another second. It's just tough for me to kill Dalton over that one play, when any of those drops could've kept a drive going and maybe you're looking at Dalton differently right now. Nevermind the line falling apart at the end or Gio's penalty. If LaFell and Green don't have a pair of drops each, suddenly Dalton is "clutch" right there.

But of course, as usual, our choking isn't limited to 1-2 players, but the entire team. Defense giving up 20 in 2nd half. 4 crucial drops from Green/LaFell, penalty on Gio, line suddenly can't hold it down, and if you desperately want to include Andy, you can say he had poor awareness in the pocket on that final play.

I guess I'm seeing Andy as the very least of those problems, and if the receivers catch the dang ball, he's a hero. That was maybe the best game by a Bengals QB vs the Steelers during the Marvin era, and we're harping on the QB. I can't get past that. He deserved a W for his performance. He outplayed Piggy.

(12-08-2017, 01:38 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: On that particular sack, yes I think if Dalton goes to his left, he could've bought another second. It's just tough for me to kill Dalton over that one play, when any of those drops could've kept a drive going and maybe you're looking at Dalton differently right now. Nevermind the line falling apart at the end or Gio's penalty. If LaFell and Green don't have a pair of drops each, suddenly Dalton is "clutch" right there.

But of course, as usual, our choking isn't limited to 1-2 players, but the entire team. Defense giving up 20 in 2nd half. 4 crucial drops from Green/LaFell, penalty on Gio, line suddenly can't hold it down, and if you desperately want to include Andy, you can say he had poor awareness in the pocket on that final play.

I guess I'm seeing Andy as the very least of those problems, and if the receivers catch the dang ball, he's a hero. That was maybe the best game by a Bengals QB vs the Steelers during the Marvin era, and we're harping on the QB. I can't get past that. He deserved a W for his performance. He outplayed Piggy.

I agree minus the two bolded. Pocket awareness wasn't just an issue on that play. He's just not good at it. I have a hard time saying he outplayed someone that lead a game winning drive. 

(12-08-2017, 12:54 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: TD pass in the 4th quarter...

Then Drew Brees promptly drove the Saints down the field only to.......throw a terrible pick in the end zone. Much like Ryan's in the 3rd qtr. Ryan scored 11 and change in fantasy....

(12-08-2017, 01:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree minus the two bolded. Pocket awareness wasn't just an issue on that play. He's just not good at it. I have a hard time saying he outplayed someone that lead a game winning drive. 

That was the only time pocket awareness hurt us during that game, and it's honestly debatable how much it really hurt. I think Dalton is average in that department. He often escapes sacks he probably shouldn't.

All the numbers and my eyes tell me Dalton had the better game. He didn't turn it over like Ben, had more impressive throws, and led more long drives. Should've had more TDs if not for that ridiculous hold call. Would've been just as clutch had his receivers not let him down, down the stretch.

Agree to disagree bud. With that, I'm backing away from this thread. Fwiw, I think it's a fine thing Andy and Gio did. Especially Gio, after Shazier tried to practically end his career last year.

So Brees isn't clutch.