I think this is an honest question. We've had Lebeau who is a HOF Coach. Coslett was a good offensive mind. Marvin had some great defenses.

We know the Bengals do things differently. Small scouting department. Not really using free agency. Not being big spenders. Letting free agents leave if they want more than the Bengals think they're worth.

We see the 27+ years of no playoff win. Well the largely the same management team has been in place over that span.

From Shake n Blake in another thread. That management team has:
-7 winning seasons in 26 years (all under Marvin)
-Roughly a .418 winning % (actually dramatically improved under Merv, or it's probably in the 30s, Merv has a .543 %)
-In 2008, the Bengals set a record for the most games needed under one specific owner to attain 100 wins (288).
-In 2010, the team set a record for the fewest games needed to lose 200 (both considering and not considering playoffs under one specific owner (314).

I know that people think our roster is loaded with talent...but it isn't. I know fans think we draft great...but we don't.

I think we got lucky on 2 drafts which turned out great with Dalton, Green, Boling and Atkins, Dunlap.

This team is HORRIBLY managed. To expect a coach to come in and be able to scout just isn't likely to happen...because the good assistants come from teams that have great personnel departments.

While Marvin is no great coach, he's the latest in a line of people to be villianized...along with Palmer, Dillon, Spikes, Pickens...Those guys aren't the problem. Management is.

At this point, who would not be willing and even anxious to find out?

(12-10-2017, 10:54 PM)McC Wrote: At this point, who would not be willing and even anxious to find out?

Honestly, I've thought a lot about the build through the draft thing.

Basically rookie contracts are 4-5 years. When you don't sign free agents like the Bengals...you basically have to have atleast 3 good drafts over 5 years to remain competitive...and even that doesn't account for position. Because say you have a Guard that's going to leave after 5 years...you need to have another great Guard waiting to take over. Or even just adequate Guard. With the hit rate of 1st Round picks being around 50%...it's near impossible.

Thus, you have about 10 starters ranked Poor by PFF out of 22.

The answer is no plain and simple no. People are in for a rude awaking when Marvin goes because I think he has been a very strong deodorant for this franchise. By the way we won 28% of the games under Mike before Marvin arrived.

(12-10-2017, 10:58 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: The answer is no plain and simple no. People are in for a rude awaking when Marvin goes because I think he has been a very strong deodorant for this franchise.  By the way we won 28% of the games under Mike before Marvin arrived.

Honestly...that's where I'm at.

Say we bring in Josh McDaniels like people want. The Patriots have 3-4 times the scouts as the Bengals so he won't know how to lead the scouting department.

Also, the front office handles bringing in free agents.

The Patriots likely have a well-defined system of when to practice, what to do at practice, etc.

They have a clearly defined system.

We have basically none of that.

You left Dalton off of your villainized list.

I don't see it. Fans constantly overvalue our talent and the Bengals have the best mouthpiece in the league when it comes to half-ass explaining why we only have half of our salary cap at best to work with and hyping practice squad players as the next surefire Hall of Famer.

Add to that the team's philosophy is antiquated and outdated and they have the worst owner/GM in professional sports, I just don't see how anyone can be asked to succeed here much less be expected to succeed.

The worst part is the that the owner/GM of our team loves nothing more than money and he will always turn profit regardless of the team's outcome because of revenue sharing. Mike Brown obviously isn't concerned with performance because the team has been a laughing stock damn near the entire time he has ran the organization. There is absolutely no reason for him to change his thought process because he will continue to make millions in profit so long as he owns the team.

Just like Mike Brown, I'm too loyal. I can't just bail on this franchise. Even knowing that as long as Mike Brown lives this team has no real chance at being a powerhouse or winning a title.

Dick Lebeau is a great coordinator....he was a lousy head coach
Bruce Coslet had 2 head coaching opportunities and has a losing record with each team.

we have had winning teams under Marvin...it wasn't talent that lost those games. WE haven't had the right coach with the right talent at the right time.

There are only 32 head coaching jobs in the NFL. Someone and it won't be the bottom of the barrel will take the job.

(12-10-2017, 10:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, I've thought a lot about the build through the draft thing.

Basically rookie contracts are 4-5 years. When you don't sign free agents like the Bengals...you basically have to have atleast 3 good drafts over 5 years to remain competitive...and even that doesn't account for position. Because say you have a Guard that's going to leave after 5 years...you need to have another great Guard waiting to take over. Or even just adequate Guard. With the hit rate of 1st Round picks being around 50%...it's near impossible.

Thus, you have about 10 starters ranked Poor by PFF out of 22.

It's the Pittsburgh Pirates model of running a franchise.  Cry poormouth and convince your fans that they only want players that "want to be here" and not hurt your wallet while hoping you can catch enough short-term lighting in a bottle to make a playoff push.  I'm in Steeler country and to their credit most of my friends are also Pirates fans and even they admit that it's pretty ridiculous that they accept the notion that the Pirates...a professional baseball team...simply can't pay guys to play baseball.

(12-10-2017, 11:03 PM)pally Wrote: Dick Lebeau is a great coordinator....he was a lousy head coach
Bruce Coslet had 2 head coaching opportunities and has a losing record with each team.

we have had winning teams under Marvin...it wasn't talent that lost those games.  WE haven't had the right coach with the right talent at the right time.

There are only 32 head coaching jobs in the NFL.  Someone and it won't be the bottom of the barrel will take the job.

But that's the thing...Lebeau and Coslett might have been great Head Coaches...but they had to scout here.

There is a reason why most organizations have 20 some scouts. Coaches should be gameplanning instead of travelling across the country to scout.

Also, when there is a hole in the roster...most teams try to fill it with free agency. The Bengals leave the gaping hole if they are on a cheap contract.

(12-10-2017, 10:54 PM)McC Wrote: At this point, who would not be willing and even anxious to find out?

Without even the slightest teeny tiny bit of doubt !

If it's not 100,000,000% crystal clear to you by now that Marvin can not get us any further ? Could we regress ? Absolutely

But what's the other thing that could happen ?

(12-10-2017, 11:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly...that's where I'm at.

Say we bring in Josh McDaniels like people want. The Patriots have 3-4 times the scouts as the Bengals so he won't know how to lead the scouting department.

Also, the front office handles bringing in free agents.

The Patriots likely have a well-defined system of when to practice, what to do at practice, etc.

They have a clearly defined system.

We have basically none of that.

Thinking McDaniels would want to come here and be the HC is a laugh because we couldn't wrap our heads around why Hue would want to go to a lousy franchise and be HC when he can be a co-ordinator for a "good" one.  Except the Patriots are actually good, unlike us.

McDaniels went to the Broncos and alienated Cutler (he really wanted to bring Cassel with him) and Mashall and then traded up to get Tebow.  To compare that to here it would be like him coming here and telling Dalton and Green to take a hike, trying to get Jacoby Brisset here at all costs, and then trading up to take (insert gimmick QB here).  The guy knows he's a second banana and he's in the best place to be a second banana.

(12-10-2017, 11:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly...that's where I'm at.

Say we bring in Josh McDaniels like people want. The Patriots have 3-4 times the scouts as the Bengals so he won't know how to lead the scouting department.

Also, the front office handles bringing in free agents.

The Patriots likely have a well-defined system of when to practice, what to do at practice, etc.

They have a clearly defined system.

We have basically none of that.

Building through the drafts works only if you resign a player when he proves his worth. Bengals haven't done that as much as they claim.

(12-10-2017, 11:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Thinking McDaniels would want to come here and be the HC is a laugh because we couldn't wrap our heads around why Hue would want to go to a lousy franchise and be HC when he can be a co-ordinator for a "good" one.  Except the Patriots are actually good, unlike us.

McDaniels went to the Broncos and alienated Cutler (he really wanted to bring Cassel with him) and Mashall and then traded up to get Tebow.  To compare that to here it would be like him coming here and telling Dalton and Green to take a hike, trying to get Jacoby Brisset here at all costs, and then trading up to take (insert gimmick QB here).  The guy knows he's a second banana and he's in the best place to be a second banana.

Precisely! Which shows that coaches should coach and the front office should acquire players.

I think there are very few HC's that could come in here and be great scouts and personnel men.

(12-10-2017, 11:16 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Building through the drafts works only if you resign a player when he proves his worth. Bengals haven't done that as much as they claim.

Yep. They left A LOT of talent leave in free agency.

So then it comes down to being able to replenish through the draft which they failed at.

So the Bengals also draft to replace guys who are free agents in upcoming years instead of to get better now too.

Ross could have been drafted with an eye towards losing Green.

(12-10-2017, 11:10 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Without even the slightest teeny tiny bit of doubt !

If it's not 100,000,000% crystal clear to you by now that Marvin can not get us any further ? Could we regress ? Absolutely

But what's the other thing that could happen ?

Several more 1 and done’s.

Maybe... But probably not if things don't change in the FO.

But I do know one thing, Marvin is not the answer. He's a horrible gameday coach, especially when it really counts. Getting rid of him alone will be a huge addition by subtraction (provided the guy they bring in to replace him isn't as bad or worse).

(12-10-2017, 11:25 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Precisely! Which shows that coaches should coach and the front office should acquire players.

I think there are very few HC's that could come in here and be great scouts and personnel men.

I also can't imagine a great personnel guy wanting to be a duo (or even the lesser half of a duo) with Mike Brown, a man who has become the ultimate long-term failure of a GM (right?).  That's like expecting Paul McCartney to team up with William Hung. Ok, that's a stupid example.

(12-10-2017, 11:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. They left A LOT of talent leave in free agency.

So then it comes down to being able to replenish through the draft which they failed at.

So the Bengals also draft to replace guys who are free agents in upcoming years instead of to get better now too.

Ross could have been drafted with an eye towards losing Green.

It's not even a matter of they let the talent walk out the door, it's the way they let some of that talent walk. The ineptitude of the Brown family would be funny if it didn't cripple this franchise.

With Marvin Jones, the story was that they had agreed to terms and went to bed thinking he was coming back, but then he signed with the Lions. If he was the priority and you agreed to terms, why the **** didn't you get the contract signed immediately instead of going to bed? They allowed the Lions or anyone else the opportunity to swoop in and snag him. Until the contract is signed, why break off talks?

With Whitworth, they paraded around telling everyone he was coming back. I believe some of that was to try and negatively impact Whit's market. Again, if he was the priority, if he was the one guy that you wanted to bring back, why not get the deal done? Instead of saying he's coming back, instead of telling everyone he's coming back, why not have a signed contract in your back pocket?

(12-10-2017, 11:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Several more 1 and done’s.

Yes, or actually winning when the heat is on. 

Not going to happen, but the only coach I could think of that might win here consistently is freaking Zimmer. His schemes are sound and he has a way of making players buy in. In some alternate reality Mike Brown may have promoted Marvin to GM and made Zimmer HC before he got snatched up by Minnesota, and we then would have won our playoff game.