We were basically as bad as the Browns before Marvin got here:

Starting in 1992 after the departure of Sam Wyche and ending in 2003 with the arrival of Lewis, here's how things went for the Bengals: 5-11, 3-13, 3-13, 7-9, 8-8, 7-9, 3-13, 4-12, 4-12, 6-10, 2-14. That's 11 years without a winning record, just one .500 record and seven years that brought fewer than five wins. One-hundred-seventy-six games with a cumulative winning percentage of .295. It goes without saying there wasn't a single playoff appearance to be had.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/why-marvin-lewis-should-never-be-fired-from-the-cincinnati-bengals-112216

Oh...but the same GM is here!

I think you have to have Marvin credit for the culture change here. He's an easy scapegoat for many people. I want him gone next year, but if in 10 years he comes to PBS for some sort of nostalgia tour Id certainly stand and clap for him. Hes a fine man, did some good here, and runs an amazing foundation

Firing Marvin does not automatically mean we go back to being the 90's Bungles. It's possible, sure. But it's beyond time to take that chance.

(12-11-2017, 12:16 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Firing Marvin does not automatically mean we go back to being the 90's Bungles. It's possible, sure. But it's beyond time to take that chance.

Exactly......it's beyond time we take a chance. We know we will never win big with Marvin and i'm sick of knowing this for a fact. I want to go into a season sincerely believing we have a chance to compete for the Lombardi.

(12-11-2017, 12:16 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Firing Marvin does not automatically mean we go back to being the 90's Bungles. It's possible, sure. But it's beyond time to take that chance.

It doesn't...but the SAME Management Team is in place. Marvin was the only change that took us from winning under 30% of games to over 50%.

While he hasn't been able to get us over the hump...I question if any coach can win consistently here.

Oh and Marvin was largely here while Roethlisberger was in Pittsburgh and the Ravens were good too. He didn't just come to some weak division.

I'm cross posting this, not because I think it's genius or anything, but this seems like a better home for it.

I think we take the playoff years with Marvin for granted. Making the playoffs is an accomplishment, doing it that many seasons in a row is a big accomplishment, and going to a Super Bowl is a rare occurrence, unless you're the Patriots.

Check out these Super Bowl standings, the rarity of Super Bowl appearances is highlighted well here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/super-bowl/standings.htm

15 teams have 3 or less appearances. 4 teams have ZERO appearances.

You can have all the elements in place, and you still need some luck to seal the deal. Between Kimo and Andy trying his hand at tackling, we basically lost what I consider are our 2 most promising shots at getting there, in the Lewis era. You really can't blame that on Marvin.

It can get a lot worse than what we’ve had in the Lewis era. Ask Dave Shula, Bruce Coslett, and Dick LeBeau. It’s time for Marvin to go, but his overall body of work has been pretty damn good. I think the guy deserves our respect. Don't run him out of town like a bum. I turned this team around, from the laughingstock of the entire league, to a respected franchise. Yes, we're in a down phase right now, but we're far from a laughingstock.

(12-11-2017, 12:38 AM)Utts Wrote: I'm cross posting this, not because I think it's genius or anything, but this seems like a better home for it.

I think we take the playoff years with Marvin for granted. Making the playoffs is an accomplishment, doing it that many seasons in a row is a big accomplishment, and going to a Super Bowl is a rare occurrence, unless you're the Patriots.

Check out these Super Bowl standings, the rarity of Super Bowl appearances is highlighted well here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/super-bowl/standings.htm

15 teams have 3 or less appearances. 4 teams have ZERO appearances.

You can have all the elements in place, and you still need some luck to seal the deal. Between Kimo and Andy trying his hand at tackling, we basically lost what I consider are our 2 most promising shots at getting there, in the Lewis era. You really can't blame that on Marvin.

It can get a lot worse than what we’ve had in the Lewis era. Ask Dave Shula, Bruce Coslett, and Dick LeBeau. It’s time for Marvin to go, but his overall body of work has been pretty damn good. I think the guy deserves our respect. Don't run him out of town like a bum. I turned this team around, from the laughingstock of the entire league, to a respected franchise. Yes, we're in a down phase right now, but we're far from a laughingstock.

Since we last won a playoff game...there have been some 23 different teams with a Super Bowl appearance.

I think that stat looks bad on Bengals Management more than Marvin.

(12-11-2017, 12:28 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It doesn't...but the SAME Management Team is in place. Marvin was the only change that took us from winning under 30% of games to over 50%.

While he hasn't been able to get us over the hump...I question if any coach can win consistently here.

Oh and Marvin was largely here while Roethlisberger was in Pittsburgh and the Ravens were good too. He didn't just come to some weak division.

You may be right but who really knows? Those other coaches had very little talent to work with. I think that's a big reason the prior winning percentage is so low. Say we hired coughlin over Marv in 2003. Maybe coughlin could have got us over that playoff hump... Maybe he could have helped us beat New England in the playoffs and won a couple of super bowl... Or maybe things would have been just as bad as they were with Marvin... Or worse. We'll never know.

But what he do know is Marvin is not the guy. It's inexplicable how some of his team's could perform like super bowl contenders at 1:00 only to melt under the pressure when the lights got too bright (with quite a bit of roster turnover). Marvin just doesn't have "it". No sense in sticking with what obviously doesn't work.

(12-11-2017, 12:43 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: You may be right but who really knows? Those other coaches had very little talent to work with. I think that's a big reason the prior winning percentage is so low. Say we hired coughlin over Marv in 2003. Maybe coughlin could have got us over that playoff hump... Maybe he could have helped us beat New England in the playoffs and won a couple of super bowl... Or maybe things would have been just as bad as they were with Marvin... Or worse. We'll never know.

But what he do know is Marvin is not the guy. It's inexplicable how some of his team's could perform like super bowl contenders at 1:00 only to melt under the pressure when the lights got too bright (with quite a bit of roster turnover). Marvin just doesn't have "it". No sense in sticking with what obviously doesn't work.

You know why we didn't hire Couglin? Unresolved personnel department issues. ie Coughlin doubted he could win here because of not having a GM and scouts and wanted to bring them in.

(12-11-2017, 12:41 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think that stat looks bad on Bengals Management more than Marvin.

Agree. Look what they gave him for an o-line this season. Everybody knew that line was a huge liability in July.

(12-11-2017, 12:45 AM)Utts Wrote: Agree. Look what they gave him for an o-line this season. Everybody knew that line was a huge liability in July.

It's a team that doesn't believe Guards and Centers win games in the NFL. Right on Bengals.com it said that.

(12-11-2017, 12:45 AM)Utts Wrote: Agree. Look what they gave him for an o-line this season. Everybody knew that line was a huge liability in July.

Getting cheap on the o-line after Dalton took a team-friendly deal to save money and provide cap space was quite the middle finger from Mike Brown.

GTFOutta here with the "oh, but remember before Lewis" crap.

"Sure husband #2 treats you like shit, but don't you remember how husband #1 beat you? Best to just take it and be thankful we're not with husband #1 anymore."

God forbid we, you know, hope and expect for something more than either perpetual misery, or perpetual mediocrity as our only two options.

Marvin Lewis has my eternal thanks for taking this team out of the the pits.

But at the same time, he's taken this team as far as he will. Time for someone new.

(12-11-2017, 12:54 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: GTFOutta here with the "oh, but remember before Lewis" crap.

"Sure husband #2 treats you like shit, but don't you remember how husband #1 beat you? Best to just take it and be thankful we're not with husband #1 anymore."

God forbid we, you know, hope and expect for something more than either perpetual misery, or mediocrity as our only two options.

I hear ya.  Since we are comparing this to relationships I was thinking that Mike Brown hiring guys like Dave Shula or Marvin Lewis rather than Bill Cowher or Tom Coughdrop is like that guy we all know who only goes after women with no self esteem because they're less demanding and just easier to deal with.

If Mike Brown hires an aggressive/demanding coach I'll plotz.

(12-11-2017, 12:44 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You know why we didn't hire Couglin? Unresolved personnel department issues. ie Coughlin doubted he could win here because of not having a GM and scouts and wanted to bring them in.

Is that actually true? I remember the rumblings about personel control, but I thought Mike wanted Coughlin and Katie wanted Marv. And it came down to Mike listening to Katie for a change (ironic, isn't it?) 

Edit: http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/01/09/bengals09.html

Coughlins agent disputed that here... But I guess that doesn't say much.

(12-11-2017, 12:54 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: GTFOutta here with the "oh, but remember before Lewis" crap.

"Sure husband #2 treats you like shit, but don't you remember how husband #1 beat you? Best to just take it and be thankful we're not with husband #1 anymore."

God forbid we, you know, hope and expect for something more than either perpetual misery, or perpetual mediocrity as our only two options.

I'm not saying Marvin should be retained...but this team won less than 30% of their games before him and the same management team is in place. THAT is the part that is noteworthy.

It's not like they brought in a new GM AND Marvin. The same people who won 30% of games stayed in charge. They're STILL in charge! 

(12-11-2017, 12:58 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm not saying Marvin should be retained...but this team won less than 30% of their games before him and the same management team is in place. THAT is the part that is noteworthy.

It's not like they brought in a new GM AND Marvin. The same people who won 30% of games stayed in charge. They're STILL in charge! 

What if the team announces Katie will be taking over in January?

(12-11-2017, 12:59 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: What if the team announces Katie will be taking over in January?

Unless Mike Brown is dead, it won't happen.  I mean, I can't SEE it happening...I can't see the future.  I actually think Katie will be like Mark Davis and hire a GM the second her old man, who never would hire a GM, keels over.

(12-11-2017, 12:56 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Is that actually true? I remember the rumblings about personel control, but I thought Mike wanted Coughlin and Katie wanted Marv. And it came down to Mike listening to Katie for a change (ironic, isn't it?) 

Edit: http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/01/09/bengals09.html

Coughlins agent disputed that here... But I guess that doesn't say much.

There's more than this out there...but here's some of it:

Coughlin presented an action plan to the Bengals detailing changes he would like to make in the front office. He apparently wants to increase the size of the football support staff - scouting and personnel - from the current 4 1/2 to at least the low end of the league average, 11.

Coughlin, the former Jacksonville Jaguars coach who was fired Dec. 30, left Cincinnati without an agreement to become the ninth coach in Bengals history. People close to Coughlin said Thursday that the size of the personnel department could be a potential deal-breaker, and that Coughlin probably wouldn't take a job without the resources he thinks he needs to win.

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/01/10/wwwben1a10.html