Does anyone here honestly think bringing in a new HC is going to change everything let alone anything? I'm all on board the "lets wipe out our staff completely train", but did Marvin get to choose an entire new coaching staff when he came to Cincinnati? Will we end up with another 'yes man'? Will Marvin go anywhere at all?

Whatever path Mike Brown chooses, its going to be a dark one. I honestly cannot see the light at the end of this 2017-18 tunnel. Based off countless past mistakes by Mike B. (before Marvin even), I just don't. I don't believe Mike after 15 years of holding on to Marvin is all of the sudden a changed man and see's his mistakes and is now looking to try something different. PROVE ME WRONG PLEASE!!!

Not to beat the dead rotting horse here, but change will NOT come until this man steps down. Even then, you have generations down his family tree ready to take over for him. This isn't as fun of a subject as "who are we picking in the draft?", but more of a "wake the hell up!" type thread.

Do you think there is light at the end of this tunnel? Will a new HC that MIKE chooses help us or bring Dooms Day? Will this new HC be the key to true success? 

With the state that we are in as a team (roster wise), how much leeway do you give our possibly new HC if he fails to bring us a winning season next year?

Lots to talk about here so please don't make this into a "I want John Gruden or John Doe!" type thread. Thanks.

You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but we won't know until we know.....

(12-11-2017, 09:03 AM)Sled21 Wrote: You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but we won't know until we know.....

Exactly. Just look at the Saints if you want a little hope. They were a terrible franchise until they found the right coach and the right QB. Never know what the future holds...

A new HC will help us a lot, but I agree with your point. Brown is holding this team back. He needs to hire a GM or at least let his coaches use FA a lot more than what they're allowed to do now. Brown is too much of a penny pincher, and that's honestly a big reason why we're not as good of a team as we could be. Things can change for this team quick since we DO have a good core group of players. Teams can change very quickly in the offseason if they make the right moves.

(12-11-2017, 09:06 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. Just look at the Saints if you want a little hope. They were a terrible franchise until they found the right coach and the right QB. Never know what the future holds...

Saints don't hold on to coaches for 15 years without a playoff win either though lol. At least they don't settle for average. Mike Brown is the bringer of false hope.

(12-11-2017, 09:33 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: A new HC will help us a lot, but I agree with your point. Brown is holding this team back. He needs to hire a GM or at least let his coaches use FA a lot more than what they're allowed to do now. Brown is too much of a penny pincher, and that's honestly a big reason why we're not as good of a team as we could be. Things can change for this team quick since we DO have a good core group of players. Teams can change very quickly in the offseason if they make the right moves.

Yeah I think if the right moves and tweaks are made with a new HC we can be a playoff caliber team again. A lot of teams have done that. I just don't know with Mike if he'll finally give in and let change happen.

I don't think anything will truly change until Mike Brown is gone.

But I also think the only true hope we have is massive change in the current coaching staff. I mean we know what we have now which equals mediocrity ! Can play with other barley above .500 teams and below at 1:00 PM Sunday games and fold against the better teams and under the bright lights.

Maybe, just maybe, a new coaching staff can find a way under MB's constraints ?

It's the only hope we've got.

Honestly...to be good next year we'd need to sign probably 3-4 impact free agents and have 2 draft picks start and play well.

I don't see that happening.

Plus, the new staff will have to be good.

A mistake selecting the next HC is possible (likely with Mike Brown in charge).

There's not much difference in a 5/6 win season then a 3 win season so if the next HC isn't any good, it won't be much different. The true mistake would be waiting another 15 years to correct it.

I agree things may not change entirely but Marvin stepping down will be the start of change that this team desperately needs.

(12-11-2017, 09:06 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. Just look at the Saints if you want a little hope. They were a terrible franchise until they found the right coach and the right QB. Never know what the future holds...

or the Rams.....

(12-11-2017, 10:51 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: or the Rams.....

The Rams actually brought free agents and made trades along with the new HC. They brought in 2 new WR's, Whitworth, and a C.

You can't simply give this roster to a new HC and expect to win. It won't happen.

(12-11-2017, 10:55 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Rams actually brought free agents and made trades along with the new HC. They brought in 2 new WR's, Whitworth, and a C.

You can't simply give this roster to a new HC and expect to win. It won't happen.

And took a top QB in the draft...

(12-11-2017, 11:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And took a top QB in the draft...

Yeah...here we'll likely change coaching staffs with some coaches staying.

We'll sign a couple 4th tier free agents to 1 year deals.

We'll draft maybe a DT or guy with our 1st Round pick with an eye to losing Atkins and then take a Center and maybe Guard in the 3rd Round. Fans will be in a frenzy talking about how much we've upgraded the team!

Bengals.com will hype John Ross.

We'll go 7-9.

(12-11-2017, 09:03 AM)Sled21 Wrote: You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but we won't know until we know.....

I have to agree with the OP....This idea that a new head coach is the great answer and ALL WE HAVE TO DO is get rid of Marvin Lewis...Well, Mike Brown will still be here and Mike Brown was worse before Marvin Lewis and YOU CAN LOOK IT UP.  12 Seasons without a play-off game before Marvin for Mikey Boy.  The BUNGLES of 1991 to 2002. ....Don't expect a lot of change in future under Pete Brown or Katie Brown Blackburn or Paul Brown Jr or the rest of the Browns and Blackburns in the Front Office Staff on down to their kids in their playpens earmarked for decades in the future. 

Until We Know ?.....Well here is What We Know as of Now...That since Paul Brown died this franchise went 12 years under Mike Brown with no play-offs.  Then came Marvin and 7 play-offs in 16 years.  7 out of 16 is pretty good for Mike Brown who went a dozen years without and had worst team in NFL.  Not just bad, THE WORST. The BUNGLES.  It could be Marvin getting 7 play-offs in 16 years makes him The Miracle Worker.  ...We know no play-off wins since Paul Brown died, but again that falls on Mike Brown. Marvin wasn't here the first 12 years, so it has to fall on Mike Brown. .....WE KNOW it was worse before Marvin, so it could get much worse again after Marvin......WE KNOW there will be NO GM under Mike or Pete or Katey or Paul Brown Jr or Groucho, Chico, Zeppo or Gummo Brown or Moe, Larry and Curly Blackburn.  They will also continue to have the fewest scouts of any NFL team and continue to do The Poor Mouth saying they have less money than the other 31 teams.  With NFL profit sharing, that is a LIE they have some of you believing. 

I would say Dooms Day for a city is when the team moves. Some cities get another team. If Cincinnati ever loses it's NFL team it will never get another. Paul Brown was told he was crazy to choose Cincinnati back in 1967 to put an AFL team.  Cincy never got another NBA team after Royals left and will never get another NFL team if Bengals leave.  There are just too many other cities with a higher growth rate than Cincy.  Plus as long as Indy has a team, and Cleveland and Tennessee, forget Cincy.  So if this franchise ever moves, there is your Cincy Dooms Day as far as NFL.  This could happen as soon as 2010 to 2015.  As Paul Browns grandchildren take over they no longer have the reason to play Art Modell in Cleveland.  Art is dead also and that team in Cleveland moved to Baltimore. Paul Brown wearing his old CB cap that stood for Cleveland Browns but then Cincinnati Bengals, The same type uniforms and the Battle For Ohio, none of this is the same to the grandchildren or Paul Brown. If they can make more money in a bigger city market, flush the toilet, they are gone. 

The Bengals will not win another game in 2017.  This will make them 11- 21 over the last 2 seasons and falling farther away from the 5 straight play-off season era never done before by this franchise. With Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Hall, Peko, Maualuga, Zeitler, Whitworth, Gruden, Zimmer gone, soon to be followed by many others gone, that 5 straight play-offs team becomes ancient history.   You are correct we can talk until blue in the face on what we don't know, but what we DO KNOW, and I tell you all this, that 11-21 over the last 2 seasons makes us farther away from play-off wins and Super Bowls.  Mike Brown and The Bengals are going backwards into BUNGLES as of NOW, not forwards to a Super Bowl.  11-21 is GOING BACKWARDS, and you can disagree until you are blue in the face, but it is GOING BACKWARDS. 

I will put it out here that it is just a fact that people wondered if there would ever be a non white President and would he be shot, as was the feeling in 1960's and look at all who got assassinated in 1960's.  Certainly many called the first non white President an N and Not Their President and there are many still upset that we had a non white President, and that is just a fact.  ....Now there are also those that never liked the idea of Bengals having their first non white head coach. They didn't want him hired. They wanted him fired right away. They sure never thought he would be here this long, and they have their lists of white coaches to take his place, all white coaches lists. ...I will say it, and it's not playing the race card, it's just a simple FACT that there are racists in the USA and to say there isn't in naive and not in touch with reality.  ...Marvin Lewis coaching his last 3 games for Bengals legacy is that he won under Mike Brown when four coaches before him could not.  He never won a play-off game, but he is only Bengal coach to have back to back play-off seasons other than Forrest Gregg, and Marvin is only Bengal coach to have 3, 4, 5 play-off seasons in a row.  He has more play-off seasons than any Bengals head coach.  His 7 play-off seasons in 16 years is a good average up there with Paul Brown and Forrest Gregg for competitive season average.   No, he never won a play-off game, with 2005 and 2015 being WHAT IF Carson or Dalton not injured, but he never won a play-off game in Cincy, BUT Marvin Lewis WON MORE with a Mike Brown franchise than any other coach has or probably will with Mike Brown so old now.  Under Mike Brown, what Marvin Lewis did might just be a miracle to win as much as he did, and like the Jack Nicholson movie, maybe under Mike Brown 7 play-offs in 16 years isn't bad and maybe As Good As It Gets for a Mike Brown team.  Some may see this, racists never will.

(12-11-2017, 09:06 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. Just look at the Saints if you want a little hope. They were a terrible franchise until they found the right coach and the right QB. Never know what the future holds...

Actually, the Saints' had 0 winning seasons in their first 18 years of existence and didn't start being anywhere close to decent until they had a change in ownership.

This is doomsday

Mike Brown is not going to make the changes needed to fix this franchise. This would hurt his pocket book.

Team is looking at another awful run.

Season tickets holders and attendance is going to drop.

County is not going to pay the fees they owe under the lease.

Bengals will either break the lease and move in the next three years or as soon as lease is over and will blame low attendance and failure of local governments to give them the support they will get from countless other cities when they start looking ( if they are not already looking for a new city I would be stunned)

Not only am I about done with the Bengals , I am getting very close to hoping they lose every game they play.

I am struggling to see any integrity in this organization.

They have taken the fan base and local government to the cleaners and the loyal support they have received despite the incompetent way the organization is run will be long forgotten when they are in London  with a new subsidized stadium and larger TV market.

Plus, if they move to London, GODell will make sure they get better calls from the refs because it will be important t TV ratings for London team to be competitive.

(12-11-2017, 12:44 PM)bengals67 Wrote: This is doomsday

Mike Brown is not going to make the changes needed to fix this franchise. This would hurt his pocket book.

Team is looking at another awful run.

Season tickets holders and attendance is going to drop.

County is not going to pay the fees they owe under the lease.

Bengals will either break the lease and move in the next three years or as soon as lease is over and will blame low attendance and failure of local governments to give them the support they will get from countless other cities when they start looking ( if they are not already looking for a new city I would be stunned)

Not only am I about done with the Bengals , I am getting very close to hoping they lose every game they play.

I am struggling to see any integrity in this organization.

They have taken the fan base and local government to the cleaners and the loyal support they have received despite the incompetent way the organization is run will be long forgotten when they are in London  with a new subsidized stadium and larger TV market.

Plus, if they move to London, GODell will make sure they get better calls from the refs because it will be important t TV ratings for London team to be competitive.

I don't think the problem is the integrity or the greed of the organization.

It's their philosophies.  These are really very good people, and they've been around football for a long time.  They want to win and they are not as stupid was people make them seem.

I do believe that Mr. Brown is entrenched in his beliefs - some of which are reinforced by some very good teams (Patriots/ Steelers) - and just tends to be too inflexible.  I do have the hope that Katie will be less rigid.  She certainly appears to be skilled as a negotiator.  But I believe that she is hamstrung by her father's inherited beliefs: e.g. that you don't pay guards, centers and safeties.

This year they decided that Whit and Zietler were not going to be worth the money because of age and the value of the position respectively.  My feeling is that they waited too long to make moves that the players' agents would find acceptable a year earlier. 

And to be fair, they may have made decent offers, but if you're Zeitler's agent aren't you going to wait till DeCastro signs and sets the market for the next year before you commit your client to a contract?

Where I think I disagree (and I would be going against the Patriot's decision not to sign Logan Mankins) I would have overpaid both of them a year earlier given the disaster we had with Og, Fisher and Bodine.  Although all of them got better towards the end of this season, yesterday showed why Og just will never be a quality NFL tackle - and Smith did not have the best day either.   And we really have no true quality anywhere on that offensive line.  Boling is our best and he's limited.

Those decisions were the most questionable decisions over the last couple of years - combined with letting Nelson go too early.  Our safeties have never quite recovered, though they have not been terrible (though they were yesterday - but with the exceptions of Gio and Johnson so was everyone else)

I believe Marvin has to go.  But Iloka was right.  The game plan was adequate the execution was horrendous.

But they better be careful who they select.  Because it's just not easy to find the right recipe for success in the league. 

(12-11-2017, 12:09 PM)kevin Wrote: I have to agree with the OP....This idea that a new head coach is the great answer and ALL WE HAVE TO DO is get rid of Marvin Lewis...Well, Mike Brown will still be here and Mike Brown was worse before Marvin Lewis and YOU CAN LOOK IT UP.  12 Seasons without a play-off game before Marvin for Mikey Boy.  The BUNGLES of 1991 to 2002. ....Don't expect a lot of change in future under Pete Brown or Katie Brown Blackburn or Paul Brown Jr or the rest of the Browns and Blackburns in the Front Office Staff on down to their kids in their playpens earmarked for decades in the future. 

Until We Know ?.....Well here is What We Know as of Now...That since Paul Brown died this franchise went 12 years under Mike Brown with no play-offs.  Then came Marvin and 7 play-offs in 16 years.  7 out of 16 is pretty good for Mike Brown who went a dozen years without and had worst team in NFL.  Not just bad, THE WORST. The BUNGLES.  It could be Marvin getting 7 play-offs in 16 years makes him The Miracle Worker.  ...We know no play-off wins since Paul Brown died, but again that falls on Mike Brown. Marvin wasn't here the first 12 years, so it has to fall on Mike Brown. .....WE KNOW it was worse before Marvin, so it could get much worse again after Marvin......WE KNOW there will be NO GM under Mike or Pete or Katey or Paul Brown Jr or Groucho, Chico, Zeppo or Gummo Brown or Moe, Larry and Curly Blackburn.  They will also continue to have the fewest scouts of any NFL team and continue to do The Poor Mouth saying they have less money than the other 31 teams.  With NFL profit sharing, that is a LIE they have some of you believing. 

I would say Dooms Day for a city is when the team moves. Some cities get another team. If Cincinnati ever loses it's NFL team it will never get another. Paul Brown was told he was crazy to choose Cincinnati back in 1967 to put an AFL team.  Cincy never got another NBA team after Royals left and will never get another NFL team if Bengals leave.  There are just too many other cities with a higher growth rate than Cincy.  Plus as long as Indy has a team, and Cleveland and Tennessee, forget Cincy.  So if this franchise ever moves, there is your Cincy Dooms Day as far as NFL.  This could happen as soon as 2010 to 2015.  As Paul Browns grandchildren take over they no longer have the reason to play Art Modell in Cleveland.  Art is dead also and that team in Cleveland moved to Baltimore. Paul Brown wearing his old CB cap that stood for Cleveland Browns but then Cincinnati Bengals, The same type uniforms and the Battle For Ohio, none of this is the same to the grandchildren or Paul Brown. If they can make more money in a bigger city market, flush the toilet, they are gone. 

The Bengals will not win another game in 2017.  This will make them 11- 21 over the last 2 seasons and falling farther away from the 5 straight play-off season era never done before by this franchise. With Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Hall, Peko, Maualuga, Zeitler, Whitworth, Gruden, Zimmer gone, soon to be followed by many others gone, that 5 straight play-offs team becomes ancient history.   You are correct we can talk until blue in the face on what we don't know, but what we DO KNOW, and I tell you all this, that 11-21 over the last 2 seasons makes us farther away from play-off wins and Super Bowls.  Mike Brown and The Bengals are going backwards into BUNGLES as of NOW, not forwards to a Super Bowl.  11-21 is GOING BACKWARDS, and you can disagree until you are blue in the face, but it is GOING BACKWARDS. 

I will put it out here that it is just a fact that people wondered if there would ever be a non white President and would he be shot, as was the feeling in 1960's and look at all who got assassinated in 1960's.  Certainly many called the first non white President an N and Not Their President and there are many still upset that we had a non white President, and that is just a fact.  ....Now there are also those that never liked the idea of Bengals having their first non white head coach. They didn't want him hired. They wanted him fired right away. They sure never thought he would be here this long, and they have their lists of white coaches to take his place, all white coaches lists. ...I will say it, and it's not playing the race card, it's just a simple FACT that there are racists in the USA and to say there isn't in naive and not in touch with reality.  ...Marvin Lewis coaching his last 3 games for Bengals legacy is that he won under Mike Brown when four coaches before him could not.  He never won a play-off game, but he is only Bengal coach to have back to back play-off seasons other than Forrest Gregg, and Marvin is only Bengal coach to have 3, 4, 5 play-off seasons in a row.  He has more play-off seasons than any Bengals head coach.  His 7 play-off seasons in 16 years is a good average up there with Paul Brown and Forrest Gregg for competitive season average.   No, he never won a play-off game, with 2005 and 2015 being WHAT IF Carson or Dalton not injured, but he never won a play-off game in Cincy, BUT Marvin Lewis WON MORE with a Mike Brown franchise than any other coach has or probably will with Mike Brown so old now.  Under Mike Brown, what Marvin Lewis did might just be a miracle to win as much as he did, and like the Jack Nicholson movie, maybe under Mike Brown 7 play-offs in 16 years isn't bad and maybe As Good As It Gets for a Mike Brown team.   Some may see this, racists never will.

I've never got any type of racist twinge from fans about Marvin. There's a lot of frustration right now, but I rarely hear anyone saying anything negative about Marvin as a person or attack his character. 

Quite frankly I think it's disrespectful to Marvin to bring race into the issue. He's done some good things here, but in 16 years was unable to win a single playoff game. He's been given even more slack then any of his peers would have been. His race has never been an issue to 99.9% of the fans.

(12-11-2017, 08:55 AM)Takedown Wrote: Does anyone here honestly think bringing in a new HC is going to change everything let alone anything? I'm all on board the "lets wipe out our staff completely train", but did Marvin get to choose an entire new coaching staff when he came to Cincinnati? Will we end up with another 'yes man'? Will Marvin go anywhere at all?

Whatever path Mike Brown chooses, its going to be a dark one. I honestly cannot see the light at the end of this 2017-18 tunnel. Based off countless past mistakes by Mike B. (before Marvin even), I just don't. I don't believe Mike after 15 years of holding on to Marvin is all of the sudden a changed man and see's his mistakes and is now looking to try something different. PROVE ME WRONG PLEASE!!!

Not to beat the dead rotting horse here, but change will NOT come until this man steps down. Even then, you have generations down his family tree ready to take over for him. This isn't as fun of a subject as "who are we picking in the draft?", but more of a "wake the hell up!" type thread.

Do you think there is light at the end of this tunnel? Will a new HC that MIKE chooses help us or bring Dooms Day? Will this new HC be the key to true success? 

With the state that we are in as a team (roster wise), how much leeway do you give our possibly new HC if he fails to bring us a winning season next year?

Lots to talk about here so please don't make this into a "I want John Gruden or John Doe!" type thread. Thanks.

For the umpteenth time, NOTHING CAN CHANGE UNTIL MB LEAVES, AND THEN IT'S A CRAP SHOOT WHAT CHANGES, IF ANY, THE NEXT 
'BROWN' WILL MAKE!!