(12-12-2017, 10:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If your favorite was simply whoever is performing better, why weren't you creating threads trumpeting Mixon after the Browns game? You were big on Hill when the season started and now you're big on Gio. I don't think you've said a positive word about Mixon all year long. It is what it is.

As for the line, I'm not sure why you're so stubborn on this.

Gio before Browns game? 3.5 YPC. 
Gio since? 5.6 YPC

Mixon before Browns game? 2.9 YPC
Mixon since? 4.9 YPC

Both went from varying levels of "bad" to "excellent". I don't care who starts or who gets the most carries. I'd just like to see you admit the line was seemingly the problem all along. The numbers certainly suggest as much. Both backs have seen an increase in YPC of at least 2 yards per tote. That's incredible. If it's not the line, I'd love to hear what you think it is.

Both these backs just out of nowhere just started carrying the ball way better Shake, yah know.

Plus it was the Browns man, we always run on the Browns, oh wait, first game we didn't did we?

The Steelers suck at stopping the run man, oh wait, we hardly ever run good on the Steelers and they are
ranked pretty high against the run. Hmmm, Gio and Mixon must of just magicly turned it on.

Nothing to do with the O-line blocking more aggressively and less passive dude, no way.

(12-12-2017, 11:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The blocking scheme has most certainly helped (and maybe opponents, who knows) but that's still...


Before Browns: Gio +0.6 YPC
Since: Gio +0.7 YPC

The difference between the two RBs is still about the same, and still handily in Gio's favor. BJGE in '13, Hill in '15, and now Mixon in '17. Doing better than them, but still stuck as second fiddle. I still think if Gio had gone to the Saints or Patriots, he'd be a slightly lesser LeSean McCoy running-wise, with Darren Sproles-like receiving.

If Mixon were averaging 3.0 YPC while Gio was averaging 4.5, I'd understand you guys. That hasn't been the case. They were both playing like crap before (lets be real - 3.5 YPC still sucks) and they're both playing great now. Now we're just splitting hairs (talking about a 0.6 YPC difference with players who were playing really bad - now great) to play favorite. 

I think it's all about the line. I don't care who gets the "starts", whoever is running is going to succeed with the line playing as it has. 

I will say this: Your expectations of Gio are on the high side. 

McCoy is a 10,000 yard back with a career 4.7 YPC. A 1600 yard season under his belt. Basically five 1300 yard seasons. A HOF caliber runner (and TBH every bit the receiver Gio is, and maybe more). Gio has never rushed for more than 730 yards and has a career 4.2 YPC. He was handed the starting role in 2014 and disappointed. Check the game logs:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BernGi00/gamelog/2014/

9 starts
6 starts with 3.43 YPC or less
6 starts with 48 yards or less
Got injured

That seem McCoy-like to you?

As a receiver, sure Gio has been Sproles-like...but Sproles brings so much more to the table that it's kinda unfair to make that name drop to boost Gio. Sproles has 62 TDs in the last 10 years, despite limited touches. Gio brings nothing as a returner, and has only 22 TDs in 5 years, despite getting more handoffs than Sproles has ever had. Heck, Gio only has 7 TDs in his last 3 years. 

I get the sudden resurgence of Gio love after he just had a couple good games in a row (which has been rare for him), but maybe we should pump the breaks on handing him the lion's share of carries, burying Mixon on the bench, and comparing Gio to HOF caliber players.  

(12-12-2017, 11:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So what do you make of this: 

Gio before Browns game? 3.5 YPC. 
Gio since? 5.6 YPC

Mixon before Browns game? 2.9 YPC
Mixon since? 4.9 YPC

Still seems you're dancing around the o-line topic and just want to focus on the backs as if they're somehow independent and don't rely on blocking. As if the above numbers aren't extremely telling. Maybe both Gio and Mixon both figured out how to "get skinny" at the exact same time. 

Oh no, I mentioned that I saw a different running approach starting with Mixon during the Cleveland game; as he started hitting the holes with less hesitation. Someone else told me it was silly to think a RB really had anything else to learn about running after 11 games into his professional career.

Gio's increase in number is most likely be attributed to increased workload; as he "only" averaged 4.0 during the Cleveland game (the game the oline all learned how to block at the same time). His numbers jumped when he got the bulk of the carries. Something someone on here (read "dancing around" point) told me would go the opposite direction if Gio's carries increased.

Point is Gio performed better than Joe before this proposed oline epiphany and has performed better than Joe after the proposed oline epiphany, so why should Joe be our feature back?

(12-13-2017, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh no, I mentioned that I saw a different running approach starting with Mixon during the Cleveland game; as he started hitting the holes with less hesitation. Someone else told me it was silly to think a RB really had anything else to learn about running after 11 games into his professional career.

Gio's increase in number is most likely be attributed to increased workload; as he "only" averaged 4.0 during the Cleveland game (the game the oline all learned how to block at the same time). His numbers jumped when he got the bulk of the carries. Something someone on here (read "dancing around" point) told me would go the opposite direction if Gio's carries increased.

Point is Gio performed better than Joe before this proposed oline epiphany and has performed better than Joe after the proposed oline epiphany, so why should Joe be our feature back?

Because Joe needs the reps more than Gio and has higher upside is my argument. Mixon can punish defenders
and catch the ball out of the backfield. Would also argue that Gio might be the better Slot Receiver so we can get
both these backs on the field at the same time.

But if Mixon started to hesitate like he was at times before the Cleveland game Gio should be the feature back.

(12-13-2017, 01:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Both these backs just out of nowhere just started carrying the ball way better Shake, yah know.

Plus it was the Browns man, we always run on the Browns, oh wait, first game we didn't did we?

The Steelers suck at stopping the run man, oh wait, we hardly ever run good on the Steelers and they are
ranked pretty high against the run. Hmmm, Gio and Mixon must of just magicly turned it on.

Nothing to do with the O-line blocking more aggressively and less passive dude, no way.

Yet Gio has ran better than Joe all year

Actually Gio had the exact same numbers in both Browns game

Factitious comments aside: There's a very good chance the oline has grown throughout the year, but no oline epiphany explains why Gio has outperformed Joe all year and why he is averaging almost 6 YPC since he's taken over the lead role.

(12-13-2017, 03:47 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Because Joe needs the reps more than Gio and has higher upside is my argument. Mixon can punish defenders
and catch the ball out of the backfield. Would also argue that Gio might be the better Slot Receiver so we can get
both these backs on the field at the same time.

But if Mixon started to hesitate like he was at times before the Cleveland game Gio should be the feature back.

There's absolutely nothing to support the notion that Joe has more upside. Compare the two college careers and tell me who was the more talented in college. Every year Gio has been here, he's had to play second fiddle to the "more talented" RB, has done so without complaint, and more often than not has outperformed them. It seems many here have the same mentality as the front office they are always slighting.

(12-13-2017, 03:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yet Gio has ran better than Joe all year

Actually Gio had the exact same numbers in both Browns game

Factitious comments aside: There's a very good chance the oline has grown throughout the year, but no oline epiphany explains why Gio has outperformed Joe all year and why he is averaging almost 6 YPC since he's taken over the lead role.

Joe ran way better against the Browns the second game than Gio though Bfine and way better against the Steelers
the first game until the clown coaches went away from the run. Right now they are pretty much equal so give the
backs the carries accordingly and if Gio outplays Joe than i am all for Gio in the lead role.

I just don't think it is as conclusive right now as you do and you have been hating on Mixon all year even before
when it was the O-line's fault. I think Mixon can be that everydown back that Gio cannot. He has the size and Gio
has shown in the past that with more carries he tends to get hurt.

(12-13-2017, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh no, I mentioned that I saw a different running approach starting with Mixon during the Cleveland game; as he started hitting the holes with less hesitation. Someone else told me it was silly to think a RB really had anything else to learn about running after 11 games into his professional career.

Gio's increase in number is most likely be attributed to increased workload; as he "only" averaged 4.0 during the Cleveland game (the game the oline all learned how to block at the same time). His numbers jumped when he got the bulk of the carries. Something someone on here (read "dancing around" point) told me would go the opposite direction if Gio's carries increased.

Point is Gio performed better than Joe before this proposed oline epiphany and has performed better than Joe after the proposed oline epiphany, so why should Joe be our feature back?

So nothing to do with the line, it's just that Mixon suddenly figured out how to hit tiny holes and Gio got better with increased workload? Definitely seems more legit than believing they both saw a massive increase in YPC at the same exact time due to blocking scheme change.

I think carries should be 60/40 in favor of Mixon. If that qualifies as "feature" back, then I guess I think Mixon should be the feature back. Why? Because both Gio and Mixon are playing well, and in 5 seasons, Gio has never proven to be a guy that can handle 20 carries on a consistent basis. Heck, the guy has carried the ball 20+ times exactly twice in 68 career games. 

The only time he was made starter (2014), he averaged 15.1 carries in his 9 starts. He had 6 games with less than 50 yards and 6 games with 3.4 YPC or less. This when our line was decent. He was viewed as a disappointment, then he got injured and lost his job. Gio is what he is. A pass catcher and a very good change of pace back. He's done nothing in 5 years to suggest he's that 20 carry guy. 

If Mixon had not surged at the same time as Gio, I could get behind making Mixon the secondary back.

But with the way Mixon played against the Browns and Steelers, combined with the fact that he seems better equipped to handle the load, makes me more inclined to keep rolling with Mixon and keep Gio in a secondary role with around 10 touches per game. The problem was clearly the line, and something has changed there. No RB had success for 12 weeks, now suddenly the RB is fire no matter who we roll out.

(12-13-2017, 04:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There's absolutely nothing to support the notion that Joe has more upside. Compare the two college careers and tell me who was the more talented in college. Every year Gio has been here, he's had to play second fiddle to the "more talented" RB, has done so without complaint, and more often than not has outperformed them. It seems many here have the same mentality as the front office they are always slighting.

Absolutely nothing to support the notion of Mixon having more upside eh Bfine?  

Youth? Size? Physicality?

Love Gio and when he is the best back i give him the praise he deserves.

But you are clearly playing favorites as i said before and are just hating on Mixon now.

(12-13-2017, 04:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So nothing to do with the line, it's just that Mixon suddenly figured out how to hit tiny holes and Gio got better with increased workload? Definitely seems more legit than believing they both saw a massive increase in YPC at the same exact time due to blocking scheme change.

I think carries should be 60/40 in favor of Mixon. If that qualifies as "feature" back, then I guess I think Mixon should be the feature back. Why? Because both Gio and Mixon are playing well, and in 5 seasons, Gio has never proven to be a guy that can handle 20 carries on a consistent basis. Heck, the guy has carried the ball 20+ times exactly twice in 68 career games. 

The only time he was made starter (2014), he averaged 15.1 carries in his 9 starts. He had 6 games with less than 50 yards and 6 games with 3.4 YPC or less. This when our line was decent. He was viewed as a disappointment, then he got injured and lost his job. Gio is what he is. A pass catcher and a very good change of pace back. He's done nothing in 5 years to suggest he's that 20 carry guy. 

This could quite possibly be the silliest retort yet:

Gio has "proven he can't be a 20+ carry guy", because the team has only given him 20+ carry guy twice in his career. Did you notice that in those 2 games he was given the ball 20+ times he averaged 4.5 YPC and over 100 yards per game. Yep, that proves he cannot be a 20 carry a game guy.

As to the getting hurt part being a tell tale of a non-feature back: Does anyone have Joe's status for this week's game?

(12-13-2017, 04:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Absolutely nothing to support the notion of Mixon having more upside eh Bfine?  

Youth? Size? Physicality?

Love Gio and when he is the best back i give him the praise he deserves.

But you are clearly playing favorites as i said before and are just hating on Mixon now.

So you've got: He's younger.

Size is moot; as it has been shown that half of the current top 10 runner in the NFL are 215 lbs or less

"Physically" is ridiculous: why didn't Joe play last week? 

I suppose you and others would have a point if I had just started suggesting this after Gio went off 2 weeks in a roll, but it's something I've said all season. Joe should prove he deserves to be the starter instead of just handing him the role. We have given Joe the most carries of any RB in every game that he has finished and he's really not proved anything.

If Joe gets over his "physically" and is healthy enough to go this week and tears it up against the Vikes, while Gio struggles, then you and others can say "see I told ya"; outside of that you may just want to look and the facts and ensure you are calling the right side "just playing favorites".

(12-13-2017, 04:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you've got: He's younger.

Size is moot; as it has been shown that half of the current top 10 runner in the NFL are 215 lbs or less

"Physically" is ridiculous: why didn't Joe play last week? 

I suppose you and others would have a point if I had just started suggesting this after Gio went off 2 weeks in a roll, but it's something I've said all season. Joe should prove he deserves to be the starter instead of just handing him the role. We have given Joe the most carries of any RB in every game that he has finished and he's really not proved anything.

If Joe gets over his "physically" and is healthy enough to go this week and tears it up against the Vikes, while Gio struggles, then you and others can say "see I told ya"; outside of that you may just want to look and the facts and ensure you are calling the right side "just playing favorites".

Seriously starting to get on my nerves now, you can't even read anymore...

It says PHYSICALITY, not physically. There is a T in there...

Whatever, let the best back win and while you are talking about staying healthy, that is the biggest reason for Gio
NOT to get most of the carries. As Shake has mentioned with more carries he tends to get hurt. Mixon has only got
hurt ONCE in the NFL so far and size DOES help in this aspect in giving and taking punishment in the NFL.

(12-13-2017, 05:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It says PHYSICALITY, not physically. There is a T in there...

Bernard does meet blitzing linebackers between thr tackles in pass pro lol.

But really it's not a question of who's better Mixon or Gio both are talented running backs. It's getting both as many touches as possible....along with AJ Green. To do that they need to get better in the trenches starting at Center.

(12-13-2017, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This could quite possibly be the silliest retort yet:

Gio has "proven he can't be a 20+ carry guy", because the team has only given him 20+ carry guy twice in his career. Did you notice that in those 2 games he was given the ball 20+ times he averaged 4.5 YPC and over 100 yards per game. Yep, that proves he cannot be a 20 carry a game guy.

As to the getting hurt part being a tell tale of a non-feature back: Does anyone have Joe's status for this week's game?

Or maybe the team hasn't given him 20 carries because he's. not. that. guy. He had one good game with 20 carries and one game where he averaged 3.3 YPC. That proves nothing either way. They've had 5 freaking years to make him a feature back and haven't. Usually the cream *eventually* rises to the top...even with this team. 

Again, take a look at 2014. The only time he was the starter. In 9 games, he rushed for less than 50 yards 6 times, and 3.4 YPC or less 6 times. Then he got hurt and missed multiple games. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink. The facts are slapping you in the face. It's up to you whether to believe them or not. 

Gio has had a nice couple of games, as did Mixon. Gio will have a major role going forward, as he usually does. It just won't be as the lead guy. For some reason.

(12-13-2017, 05:12 PM)Synric Wrote: Bernard does meet blitzing linebackers between thr tackles in pass pro lol.

But really it's not a question of who's better Mixon or Gio  both are talented running backs. It's getting both as many touches as possible....along with AJ Green. To do that they need to get better in the trenches starting at Center.

Completely agree and this is a good draft for grabbing our future Center...

Get his job back? He didn't lose it.

(12-13-2017, 05:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Seriously starting to get on my nerves now, you can't even read anymore...

It says PHYSICALITY, not physically. There is a T in there...

Whatever, let the best back win and while you are talking about staying healthy, that is the biggest reason for Gio
NOT to get most of the carries. As Shake has mentioned with more carries he tends to get hurt. Mixon has only got
hurt ONCE in the NFL so far and size DOES help in this aspect in giving and taking punishment in the NFL.

No idea why stating my position would get on your nerves. 

I fully understood the word you used and pointed to the guy you gave the physicality nod to, is currently in concussion protocol. Doesn't physicality mean the ability to endure physical contact?

Luckily my nerves are not "gotten on" as easily. If so someone suggesting a player has only missed games ONCE during his entire 11 game NFL career earns the physicality nod might just do it.

(12-13-2017, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Or maybe the team hasn't given him 20 carries because he's. not. that. guy. He had one good game with 20 carries and one game where he averaged 3.3 YPC. That proves nothing either way. They've had 5 freaking years to make him a feature back and haven't. Usually the cream *eventually* rises to the top...even with this team. 

I'll take your reasoning as the team has rightly decided he is not a bellcow. Because really that's all you can come up with. Sorta like Dalton is a better QB that Cousins because he has a longer contract.

Who knew you had so much faith in this coach and front office. Must say I am pleased to see it. And here I thought I was the "Marvin Apologist".

(12-13-2017, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll take your reasoning as the team has rightly decided he is not a bellcow. Because really that's all you can come up with. Sorta like Dalton is a better QB that Cousins because he has a longer contract.

Who knew you had so much faith in this coach and front office. Must say I am pleased to see it. And here I thought I was the "Marvin Apologist".

Translation: "I got nothin"

Bye-bye.