dammint j. ross we needed you

(12-15-2017, 08:22 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: dammint j. ross we needed you

Marvin was afraid he would ruin the ruined season.

(12-15-2017, 06:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Marvin has kept talent off the field many times before for what he considered to be the solid vet types.

Many times, Thornton over Sims, Livings over Mathis, Geathers over Dunlap, Shawn over Derron, MJ over Willis,
Lafell over Erickson/Malone/Core/Ross etc.

Oh man, what if the next HC is all about getting Ross on the field but doesn't want to put up with a guy like Burfict?  What if Marvin's bias for veterans was a good thing, unbeknownst to us? Oooh, 2018 could really sizzle I tells ya!

(12-15-2017, 06:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Marvin has kept talent off the field many times before for what he considered to be the solid vet types.

Many times, Thornton over Sims, Livings over Mathis, Geathers over Dunlap, Shawn over Derron, MJ over Willis,
Lafell over Erickson/Malone/Core/Ross etc.

True. But this situation seems different to me.

(12-15-2017, 06:23 PM)Utts Wrote: This small sample of practice snaps raises questions, but is far from conclusive. As others have pointed out, there might be 50 more snaps where he's running the wrong route, or dropping passes. Who knows.

Valid point but u have to admit, just from those clips he's good enough to make the 53 man roster and pop the top off the defense.

(12-15-2017, 04:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Essentially fans are advocating giving Ross playing time based on his draft position and not actual performance in practice.

They play Kirkpatrick because of his draft status and he sucks ass.

The whole Marvin keeps talent off the field because they are rookies thing is simply just a made up fallacy in an attempt to slur a HC that folks what gone. The less learned might buy into it and perhaps something you could spout off at work or in a bar; however, many here realize that's just not the case and he tries to put the best product he can on the field.

How long did Gresham sit?

How long did Eifert sit?

How long did Burfict sit?

How long did Shipley sit?

How long did Zietler sit?

How long did Bodine sit?

How long did Mixon sit?

..............

(12-15-2017, 06:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Marvin has kept talent off the field many times before for what he considered to be the solid vet types.

Many times, Thornton over Sims, Livings over Mathis, Geathers over Dunlap, Shawn over Derron, MJ over Willis,
Lafell over Erickson/Malone/Core/Ross etc.

Instead of rationally explaining the reason behind all these, let me just shoot the most simple one down:

Mathis came in the league in 2005, Livings came in the league in 2006

(12-15-2017, 05:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There was a story recently that claimed Marv didn't like the pick. Then this footage surfaces of Ross burning dudes and making leaping grabs in practice recently. Even Marv apologists have to admit it doesn't look good. You'd think anyways.

I didn't notice any time/date stamp on the video.  Are those plays from the same practice, or a collage of his best highlights from all practice sessions?

But yeah, this footage doesn't look good for player/coaching relations this year.

(12-16-2017, 02:45 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Oh man, what if the next HC is all about getting Ross on the field but doesn't want to put up with a guy like Burfict?   What if Marvin's bias for veterans was a good thing, unbeknownst to us?  Oooh, 2018 could really sizzle I tells ya!

If Burfict (or anyone else for that matter) does stupid shit on and off the field, I'd actually be ok with that. I'm all for a coach who has a very low tolerance level for stupid bullshit. It's sorely needed here IMO.

And Marvin and Paul Alexander's bias for certain players (not necessarily veterans) will not be missed. At all.  

(12-15-2017, 05:41 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: So you think Marvin is going to ruin his whole reputation over a rookie WR?  There is way more to this story than a handful of practice clips.

His reputation of being a douchebag and awful coach? Wouldn’t want to tarnish that, now.

(12-16-2017, 09:41 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The whole Marvin keeps talent off the field because they are rookies thing is simply just a made up fallacy in an attempt to slur a HC that folks what gone. The less learned might buy into it and perhaps something you could spout off at work or in a bar; however, many here realize that's just not the case and he tries to put the best product he can on the field.

How long did Gresham sit?

How long did Eifert sit?

How long did Burfict sit? 

How long did Shipley sit?

How long did Zietler sit?

How long did Bodine sit?

How long did Mixon sit?

..............

Geno Atkins sat his rookie year after leading the preseason in sacks
Carlos Dunlap couldn't get "starts" or run downs and Marvin was critical of him publicly
Carl Lawson has how many snaps? With 7.5 sacks?
Nick Vigil sat as a rookie
Jake Fisher sat as a rookie
Darqueze Dennard sat as a rookie
Shawn Williams and George Iloka sat as rookies
Mo Sanu and Marvin Jones barely played as rookies and Armon Binns started the first 5 games of the season until he was so bad he got cut.
Clint Boling barely played as a rookie
Michael Johnson sat as a rookie

Think about this: The 3 key players on the best d-line in team history all sat out their rookie seasons (Atkins, Johnson) or were sitting behind Geathers for some downs while in Marv's doghouse publicly (Dunlap). The best LB in team history needed an injury to break the starting lineup even though his talent was painfully obvious early. Same case with Atkins leading the league in sacks his rookie preseason.

Just because we've played some rookies doesn't mean Marvin doesn't have a tendency to "redshirt" talented rookies if there's a solid incumbent vet. Even Gresh and Eifert got their starts in 2 TE sets. The shell of Reggie Kelly was still starting in Gresh's rookie year. Gresh was still starting for Eifert's. So it's not like either took a vet's starting job away. Same deal with Shipley, Zeitler and Bodine. Did they take a starting gig from an incumbent vet? No.

The examples of a rookie taking a job from an incumbent vet are too rare.

(12-16-2017, 12:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Geno Atkins sat his rookie year after leading the preseason in sacks
Carlos Dunlap couldn't get "starts" or run downs and Marvin was critical of him publicly
Carl Lawson has how many snaps? With 7.5 sacks?
Nick Vigil sat as a rookie
Jake Fisher sat as a rookie
Darqueze Dennard sat as a rookie
Shawn Williams and George Iloka sat as rookies
Mo Sanu and Marvin Jones barely played as rookies and Armon Binns started the first 5 games of the season until he was so bad he got cut.
Clint Boling barely played as a rookie
Michael Johnson sat as a rookie

Think about this: The 3 key players on the best d-line in team history all sat out their rookie seasons (Atkins, Johnson) or were sitting behind Geathers for some downs while in Marv's doghouse publicly (Dunlap). The best LB in team history needed an injury to break the starting lineup even though his talent was painfully obvious early. Same case with Atkins leading the league in sacks his rookie preseason.

Just because we've played some rookies doesn't mean Marvin doesn't have a tendency to "redshirt" talented rookies if there's a solid incumbent vet. Even Gresh and Eifert got their starts in 2 TE sets. The shell of Reggie Kelly was still starting in Gresh's rookie year. Gresh was still starting for Eifert's. So it's not like either took a vet's starting job away. Same deal with Shipley, Zeitler and Bodine. Did they take a starting gig from an incumbent vet? No.

The examples of a rookie taking a job from an incumbent vet are too rare.

Geno played his rookie year no he didn't start but he did play on passing downs, Carlos played and had 9 sacks his rookie year, crocker was better than Iloka in 12, Iloka and Nelson were better than Williams, Binns over Sanu and Jones point you, Clint started at RG and sucked his first year, Leon Hall was better than Dennard, and MJ wasn't ready yet his rookie year. 

(12-16-2017, 12:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Geno Atkins sat his rookie year after leading the preseason in sacks
Carlos Dunlap couldn't get "starts" or run downs and Marvin was critical of him publicly
Carl Lawson has how many snaps? With 7.5 sacks?
Nick Vigil sat as a rookie
Jake Fisher sat as a rookie
Darqueze Dennard sat as a rookie
Shawn Williams and George Iloka sat as rookies
Mo Sanu and Marvin Jones barely played as rookies and Armon Binns started the first 5 games of the season until he was so bad he got cut.
Clint Boling barely played as a rookie
Michael Johnson sat as a rookie

Think about this: The 3 key players on the best d-line in team history all sat out their rookie seasons (Atkins, Johnson) or were sitting behind Geathers for some downs while in Marv's doghouse publicly (Dunlap). The best LB in team history needed an injury to break the starting lineup even though his talent was painfully obvious early. Same case with Atkins leading the league in sacks his rookie preseason.

Just because we've played some rookies doesn't mean Marvin doesn't have a tendency to "redshirt" talented rookies if there's a solid incumbent vet. Even Gresh and Eifert got their starts in 2 TE sets. The shell of Reggie Kelly was still starting in Gresh's rookie year. Gresh was still starting for Eifert's. So it's not like either took a vet's starting job away. Same deal with Shipley, Zeitler and Bodine. Did they take a starting gig from an incumbent vet? No.

The examples of a rookie taking a job from an incumbent vet are too rare.

Meh examples have been provided and many others could be. For instance how many years did your boy Andy sit behind proven Vet Bruce Gradkowski?

Just because some rookies are eased into the lineup doesn't mean this board doesn't have a tendency to make up something and run with it. No amount of examples provided to the contrary is going to change their minds. So I'll just save the key strokes. 

(12-16-2017, 02:12 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1. Geno played his rookie year no he didn't start but he did play on passing downs, 2. Carlos played and had 9 sacks his rookie year, 3. crocker was better than Iloka in 12, 4. Iloka and Nelson were better than Williams, 5. Binns over Sanu and Jones point you, 6. Clint started at RG and sucked his first year, 7. Leon Hall was better than Dennard, and 8. MJ wasn't ready yet his rookie year. 

1. I did not say Geno did not play as a rookie. I said he didn't start and didn't play enough. Geno only got 355 snaps as a rookie. That's from a guy that's averaged 777 snaps (per 16 games) since PFR started tracking snaps in 2012. 

2. I did not say Dunlap didn't play. I said he didn't start, was stuck behind Geathers on run downs, and Marvin got on Dunlap publicly.

3. What do you base this on? The opinion of the man who didn't want to start Iloka? Crocker was so good that the Bengals cut him, and he sat around for 5 months on his couch before the Bengals brought him back in September. Was Taylor Mays also better than Iloka? Because he started the first 3 games before Crocker was brought back. 

4. That one I'll give you.

5. Ok.

6. Boling started 3 games and only started because Bobbie Williams was suspended. Dalton and Benson both had their best games of the season while Boling was starting.

7. How do we know this? Leon was a shell of himself and we don't know if Dennard was better because he didn't play.

8. If you say so. Again, how do we know?

(12-16-2017, 02:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Meh examples have been provided and many others could be. For instance how many years did your boy Andy sit behind proven Vet Bruce Gradkowski?

Just because some rookies are eased into the lineup doesn't mean this board doesn't have a tendency to make up something and run with it. No amount of examples provided to the contrary is going to change their minds. So I'll just save the key strokes. 

Your examples were every bit as "meh". Gradkowski wasn't an incumbent and was never the starter in Cincy. These boards have just as much a tendency of making up stuff to defend the team/coaches/owner. Homers gonna home. No amount of examples is going to change their minds. So I'll just save the key strokes.

Everyone is all fired up on here but can someone tell me what this video actually means? It looks to me like he has ten or so decent catches in practice over the last year. I say so what.? If this is highlights of hours and hours and hours of practices, it’s honestly not that overwhelmingly impressive. I’m guessing that every single player on the team could match or beat this highlight film. Again, I think it says nothing. Please tell me why you are all so amazed and upset after seeing this because I don’t get it.

(12-16-2017, 04:03 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Everyone is all fired up on here but can someone tell me what this video actually means? It looks to me like he has ten or so decent catches in practice over the last year. I say so what.? If this is highlights of hours and hours and hours of practices, it’s honestly not that overwhelmingly impressive. I’m guessing that every single player on the team could match or beat this highlight film. Again, I think it says nothing. Please tell me why you are all so amazed and upset after seeing this because I don’t get it.

It shows smooth route running, quickness off the line, great acceleration, excellent hands, balance and body control.  You know, insignificant shit like that, also known as everything you'd want in a WR, who was kept on the bench for a team where nobody but AJ could get open way too much of the time.  Nah, he had nothing to offer at all.  Why would an offense as explosive as ours want that guy on the field?

(12-16-2017, 04:03 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Everyone is all fired up on here but can someone tell me what this video actually means? It looks to me like he has ten or so decent catches in practice over the last year. I say so what.? If this is highlights of hours and hours and hours of practices, it’s honestly not that overwhelmingly impressive. I’m guessing that every single player on the team could match or beat this highlight film. Again, I think it says nothing. Please tell me why you are all so amazed and upset after seeing this because I don’t get it.

Methinks the most likely thing is that we are frustrated at what we are seeing on the field and since we (practically) know Marvin won't be here we are hoping beyond hope that John Ross doing zilch this year was due to Marvin Lewis refusing to play him.  Ross will be here next year, Marvin won't, so we hope our problem of having 0 good WRs besides AJ will be solved as soon as we have a new HC who isn't hell bent on keeping Ross down.

Additionally, we have a tendency to really go overboard when it comes to evaluating our WR corps around here.  Just off the top of my head Armon Binns, Denarius Moore, Mario Alfred, [can't remember his first name] Wright, Cody Core, Jerome Simpson, that Kumerwowow guy, Rishaun Salmonize, Malone and so on, were all supposed to be great if Marvin Lewis would just get his head out of his arse and play them.  We really love our WRs' potential until the guy actually gets on the field and then it's time to wonder why we aren't giving the next guy a shot.

Bonus points for people arguing that a WR's draft position doesn't matter when we are talking up a late round WR, but then saying we should play Ross because he obviously has first round talent.

Short version?  We are really hoping Ross is great and that it's Marvin's fault he wasn't being great this year and that Marvin won't be here to keep him from being great next year.  My cynical take?  I really wish Steeler fans were sitting around dreaming of a guy with 0 catches saving their team.

(12-16-2017, 05:34 PM)McC Wrote: It shows smooth route running, quickness off the line, great acceleration, excellent hands, balance and body control.  You know, insignificant shit like that, also known as everything you'd want in a WR, who was kept on the bench for a team where nobody but AJ could get open way too much of the time.  Nah, he had nothing to offer at all.  Why would an offense as explosive as ours want that guy on the field?

I'm not trying to sound like a smartass here, but are we sure those clips significantly separate Ross from Malone, Core, Boyd, or Erickson? I mean, I really hope Ross is some dynamite WR that is just waiting for a HC who won't refuse to unleash him on our foes, but that takes an amount of optimism that decades of Bengals fandom have beaten out of me.

(12-15-2017, 12:33 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: All the clips are just catching passes. Earlier in the year Marv was criticizing Ross on his blocking ability. If he was hiding a shoulder injury, that would make blocking pretty difficult, just ask Boling last year. Marv has always said the WR on this team have to be committed to run blocking if they want to play.

If you are right then it goes to show Marvin is clueless. You draft a small very fast WR to make plays. Blocking is a bonus. 


Ps AJ is not a great blocker. Not even sure I would say he is even avg 

(12-16-2017, 05:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Methinks the most likely thing is that we are frustrated at what we are seeing on the field and since we (practically) know Marvin won't be here we are hoping beyond hope that John Ross doing zilch this year was due to Marvin Lewis refusing to play him.  Ross will be here next year, Marvin won't, so we hope our problem of having 0 good WRs besides AJ will be solved as soon as we have a new HC who isn't hell bent on keeping Ross down.

Additionally, we have a tendency to really go overboard when it comes to evaluating our WR corps around here.  Just off the top of my head Armon Binns, Denarius Moore, Mario Alfred, [can't remember his first name] Wright, Cody Core, Jerome Simpson, that Kumerwowow guy, Rishaun Salmonize, Malone and so on, were all supposed to be great if Marvin Lewis would just get his head out of his arse and play them.  We really love our WRs' potential until the guy actually gets on the field and then it's time to wonder why we aren't giving the next guy a shot.

Bonus points for people arguing that a WR's draft position doesn't matter when we are talking up a late round WR, but then saying we should play Ross because he obviously has first round talent.

Short version?  We are really hoping Ross is great and that it's Marvin's fault he wasn't being great this year and that Marvin won't be here to keep him from being great next year.  My cynical take?  I really wish Steeler fans were sitting around dreaming of a guy with 0 catches saving their team.



I'm not trying to sound like a smartass here, but are we sure those clips significantly separate Ross from Malone, Core, Boyd, or Erickson?  I mean, I really hope Ross is some dynamite WR that is just waiting for a HC who won't refuse to unleash him on our foes, but that takes an amount of optimism that decades of Bengals fandom have beaten out of me.

Can't forget Mario "the next TJ Houshmandzadeh" Urrutia either